Balancing Virtues and Rewards

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Glorelendil
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Balancing Virtues and Rewards

Post by Glorelendil » Thu Jan 08, 2015 6:02 pm

UPDATE: I'm editing this post according to later posts, and also removing all traits/virtues that have no changes, for brevity and readability.

Three-fold purpose for this thread:
1) Houserules. Personally I'm not much of a houseruler, but some of you are.
2) 2nd Edition TOR. Some day there will be a 2nd edition. I want these ideas to have time to percolate/gestate/ferment.
3) I just really have fun thinking about this sort of thing, even if it's pointless.

In working on my character creation guide I kept having ideas for how to "fix" virtues and rewards that I don't personally like. Some general principles I'm aiming for are:
- If a Virtue or Reward requires Hope to use, it should also have some kind of passive, mechanical benefit. Or at last be significantly more powerful than a regular attribute invocation.
- Upgradeable Virtues (spending XP to add benefits) are fun and flavorful.
- Virtues and Rewards should not scale inversely to Weapon/Wisdom/Valour increases (I feel less strongly about common skills). Or the decay should be minimized, at least.

I really like how "Small Folk" grants you the Small trait (even if that particular virtue needs no help). It's a simple, elegant way to make some of the virtues slightly better, so I'm copying that model in some of these. And with that....

Bardings

King’s Men: Maybe add the Steadfast trait.

Swordmaster: Add Great Sword to the game. Damage: 8, Edge: 10, Injury: 18, Encumbrance: 4

Woeful Foresight: Both Gandalf and Eye of Sauron are autosuccess on all preliminary rolls.

Spear of King Bladorthin: I’ve defended this item in the past, but let’s face it: nobody takes it. Replace with: Sword of King Bladorthin (long sword): When you are Weary, attacks with this sword only ignore the 1's and 2's on the Success dice; the 3's are still counted.

Beornings

Brother of Bears: Add a trait. Not sure which one.

Night-goer: If you restrict your travel to as many hours as your Wisdom you don't need to spend the Hope. Also, when using Awe on beasts (e.g. wargs) you get free Attribute bonus.

Skin-coat: Sucks to spend a bunch of Endurance and still fail the roll, or realize you would have made the roll anyway. Change to: "When invoking an attribute bonus on a Protection test, you may pay the cost in Endurance (in points equal to your Body rating) instead of Hope."

Dwarves of Erebor

Durin’s Way: add Tunneling trait.

Dwarf-wrought Hauberk: If you’re starting with 3 dice it’s rare that you’re going to miss a protection roll by more than your Body. This might be the ideal place for damage reduction: "When wearing this armor, reduce all damage loss by 1 Endurance."

Elves of Mirkwood

Deadly Archery: My nominee for “worst virtue in the game”. Not only bad math to start with, but scales inversely with skill. New version:

Code: Select all

When outdoors, your bow attacks suffer no penalties from poor light or tree cover. Also, choose either Keen-eyed or Patient as a bonus trait.

During subsequent Fellowship Phases you may, as an undertaking, learn one new skill:

Stinging Arrow (1 XP)
You may spend a point of Hope to double the range of a shot, or to turn a hit into a Pierce.

Patient Hunter (2 XP)
When you make a Prepared Shot, your Injury rating increases by 2. (Rationale: as your bow skill gets higher Prepared Shot becomes less desirable than Called Shot. This gives Prepared Shot a new niche, and helps compensate for the low Injury of Bows.) 

Defender of the Wood (1 XP)
During an opening volley, against a surprised adversary add your Heart score to your attack roll.
The Speakers: fine, but needs a passive. Maybe add Keen of Hearing trait.

Wood-elf Magic:

Code: Select all

New trait: Fair Folk. The spirit of the Eldar burns brightly in you, even as it fades from the world. You are sensitive to the lingering presence of Elven “magic” (as mortals would call it), and others sense it in you...if you choose to reveal it.

For 1 XP: Elf-lights
(As per description in rules, without Hope cost.) Each Adventure Phase you may use this ability as many times as your Wisdom score.

For 2 XP: Enchanted Slumber
(As per description in rules, and costs 1 point of Hope.)
Hobbits of the Shire

Art of Disappearing: needs a passive benefit, like Elusive trait. And/or maybe “When using Stealth, after rolling a great or extraordinary success you may attempt something otherwise impossible, like picking a troll’s pocket, at a normal TN.”

Brave at a Pinch: I’d add one “free” use: “When you become Weary, you may invoke an Attribute on one action without spending Hope. Resets when you are no longer Weary.”

King’s Blade: Meh. I’m not sure I’d ever spend Hope to get a Pierce with an Injury 14 weapon. Ok, maybe if the rest of my fellowship is unconscious and there’s a single attribute-level 2 goblin left. Add, “The Protection of your target is reduced by 1 die against this attack only.”

Men of the Lake

Bowman of the Guild: weak math, but it’s hard to think of new mechanics that aren’t already used elsewhere. How about something where you spend the point of Hope and it provides a benefit for the duration of the battle?

Water Legs: compared to other feats designed to increase Parry for low-Wits cultures (Swordmaster, Great Strength) this one is weak. You’re spending a virtue to to very occasionally do something that may have no effect. With an opportunity cost. You should be able to invoke this after your opponent’s attack roll. I could even see it increasing preliminary Battle rolls by one success (normal -> great, great -> extraordinary). But I would also want to restrict it to your own bonus dice; no borrowing for this use.

Brazen Armor: it's bad (see post below). Needs a different benefit.

Woodmen

A Hunter’s Resolve: Needs a non-Hope passive, like doubling the benefit you get from somebody else’s Rally Comrades.

Herbal Remedies: needs one more upgrade that doesn't cost Hope.

Bearded Axe: ehhhhh. I’d change it to “...you can trade one of your extra successes to disarm or smash shield.” So that on an Extraordinary Success you at least still get one bonus die. Then again, Woodmen have low body so bonus damage isn’t anything to get excited about.
Last edited by Glorelendil on Sun Jan 11, 2015 6:38 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Glorelendil
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Re: Balancing Virtues and Rewards

Post by Glorelendil » Thu Jan 08, 2015 7:15 pm

I simmed out Brazen Armour. On any given hit, what is the % chance of being Wounded, with normal armor and with Brazen armour. Here are the results (the % is "% of hits that result in a Wound"). One note: I used hero weapons, which are generally better than adversary weapons.

Code: Select all

Mail Shirt
short sword vs mail shirt: 5% normal, 1% with Brazen
sword vs mail shirt: 7% normal, 3% with Brazen
long sword (2H) vs mail shirt: 10% normal, 5% with Brazen
bow vs mail shirt: 5% normal, 9% with Brazen
great bow vs mail shirt: 7% normal, 12% with Brazen
axe vs mail shirt: 5% normal, 3% with Brazen
great axe vs mail shirt: 6% normal, 4% with Brazen
spear vs mail shirt: 8% normal, 14% with Brazen
great spear vs mail shirt: 11% normal, 18% with Brazen

Mail Corslet
short sword vs mail corslet: 1% normal, 0% with Brazen
sword vs mail corslet: 3% normal, 1% with Brazen
long sword (2H) vs mail corslet: 5% normal, 2% with Brazen
bow vs mail corslet: 1% normal, 5% with Brazen
great bow vs mail corslet: 3% normal, 7% with Brazen
axe vs mail corslet: 2% normal, 1% with Brazen
great axe vs mail corslet: 4% normal, 2% with Brazen
spear vs mail corslet: 3% normal, 7% with Brazen
great spear vs mail corslet: 5% normal, 11% with Brazen

Mail Hauberk
short sword vs mail hauberk: 0% normal, 0% with Brazen
sword vs mail hauberk: 1% normal, 0% with Brazen
long sword (2H) vs mail hauberk: 2% normal, 0% with Brazen
bow vs mail hauberk: 0% normal, 1% with Brazen
great bow vs mail hauberk: 1% normal, 3% with Brazen
axe vs mail hauberk: 1% normal, 0% with Brazen
great axe vs mail hauberk: 2% normal, 0% with Brazen
spear vs mail hauberk: 0% normal, 2% with Brazen
great spear vs mail hauberk: 1% normal, 5% with Brazen
Observations:
With 5D of protection you almost never get wounded anyway, so you don't need to spend a Reward here.

To over-generalize, the wound rate gets halved against slashing weapons, and doubled against piercing weapons. If you assume an even distribution between the two (i.e., you get attacked by piercing weapons as often as slashing weapons) that's actually a net loss. Let's take a simple case say you get attacked 100 times by each, and each has a base 10% chance of causing a wound. That would be 20 wounds total. But if you halve one and double the other, you end up getting Wounded 25 times. (And that doesn't even factor in that piercing weapons seem to have higher Wound rates to start with.)

Conclusion: Unless you can predict what kind of weapons you'll be facing, Brazen Armor seems to be a net loss.
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Corvo
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Re: Balancing Virtues and Rewards

Post by Corvo » Thu Jan 08, 2015 8:19 pm

Can you explain me why Bowman of the Guild is weak? I'm not challenging your idea, just wondering.
I have never tried it in a game, but I was wary of the combo value with called shot (1 extra success=wounding hit)

Glorelendil
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Re: Balancing Virtues and Rewards

Post by Glorelendil » Thu Jan 08, 2015 8:48 pm

Corvo wrote:Can you explain me why Bowman of the Guild is weak? I'm not challenging your idea, just wondering.
I have never tried it in a game, but I was wary of the combo value with called shot (1 extra success=wounding hit)
Just that it's a point of Hope for a measly 5 or 6 damage. I'd rather spend the point turning a miss into a great success or a pierce. Sure, once per campaign you might need just 6 more damage to save the day, but do you really want to use one of your precious virtues on that chance?

The current mechanic could be an extra benefit on top of a more solid mechanic and it would be fine.

Or am I missing something, or misreading it?
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Blubbo Baggins
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Re: Balancing Virtues and Rewards

Post by Blubbo Baggins » Thu Jan 08, 2015 8:49 pm

I pretty much agree with all of your summaries/analysis.

I didn't like Brazen armor already - where's the "reward" here? It should be a TYPE of armor that any PC can choose, not a reward. Rewards should be pure benefit, not cost/benefit.
Serpent Scimitar - don't like it - it's usefulness doesn't scale. Sure you will face a good number of Orcs with shields, maybe some evil men.... but overall it is situational and those XP could have been spent to simply upgrade your weapon skill (which not only helps you hit more, but do more damage, have a higher Called Shot probability, etc).

A lot of these rewards/virtues could be 'fixed' by simply expanding them. Case in point: Wood-Elf Magic. What used to be a Hope drainer, if you upgrade it through the Lampmaker upgrades, becomes a powerful and fun ability, that also has a lot of story element. I think the same could happen (and in some cases, needs to) with virtues/rewards like Bowmen of the Guild, King's Men, Night Goer, Merchant Prince, Birthright, River-Blooded, Spear of Bladorthin, Ravens of Mtns, Broken Spells, Brave at a Pinch or another Hobbit virtue, etc. These, at least thematically, are all hoping to get further development.

It would be really neat if C7 had some of these things already put into the Adventurer's Companion...

Glorelendil
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Re: Balancing Virtues and Rewards

Post by Glorelendil » Thu Jan 08, 2015 8:58 pm

Serpent Scimitar really isn't bad, although it does decline in value as your skill increases. And you're not spending the XP on the sword, you are spending it on Valour, which has its own value.

Lakemen have terrible Wits, so anything that lets them use more defensive stances is good. The scimitar does that.

Also remember that Shield Fighting benefits from raw hits, so again getting that bonus is extra nice, even if it doesn't produce more Tengwars.
Last edited by Glorelendil on Thu Jan 08, 2015 9:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Indur Dawndeath
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Re: Balancing Virtues and Rewards

Post by Indur Dawndeath » Thu Jan 08, 2015 9:36 pm

Nice breakdown of the different cultures. I agree with all :)

My house rule for Brazen armor is not to have the penalty on piercing blows, so only benefits.
It was nice to see the advantage calculated, don't think it was a bad idea to modify it. Thanks.

Waterlegs was also modified to: Always +3 parry on a boat and Always an extra combat advantage.
I think it matches Bardings and Beornings virtues in this way, since the bonus to parry is the same, but limited to boats... Hence the need for a bonus combat advantage.

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Re: Balancing Virtues and Rewards

Post by Falenthal » Thu Jan 08, 2015 10:40 pm

Great summary, Glorelendil.

Fully agree with most of your comments (Brazen Armor is so very bad) and Hope expenditure is asked far too often for my taste. There are passive virtues/rewards that grant great benefits without having to spend the much needed Hope points. That should be addressed in the hypothetical 2nd Edition (or the Adventurer's Companion, who know...)

Glorelendil
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Re: Balancing Virtues and Rewards

Post by Glorelendil » Fri Jan 09, 2015 5:33 am

Ok, here's the first of my major overhauls. I'm tackling Deadly Archery. My goal is to help mirkwood elves compensate, at least in some ways, for the fact that they can't use Great Bow and thus are gimped for both damage and pierces.

I also moved Stinging Arrow from Wood-elf Magic to here, in order to make Wood-elf Magic appealing to spear users. But that virtue will also need some work as a result.

Deadly Archery

When outdoors, your bow attacks suffer no penalties from poor light or tree cover. Also, choose either Keen-eyed or Patient as a bonus trait.

During subsequent Fellowship Phases you may, as an undertaking, learn one new skill:

Stinging Arrow (1 XP)
You may spend a point of Hope to double the range of a shot, or to turn a hit into a Pierce.

Patient Hunter (2 XP)
When you make a Prepared Shot, your Injury rating increases by 2. (Rationale: as your bow skill gets higher Prepared Shot becomes less desirable than Called Shot. This gives Prepared Shot a new niche, and helps compensate for the low Injury of Bows.)

Defender of the Wood (1 XP)
During an opening volley, against a surprised adversary your ranged damage is equal to your favoured Body. (Rationale: it's a small but nice boost that rewards Elves for doing something they're supposed to be good at. And, yes, it would apply to both shots of a Woodland Bow.)


Whaddya think?
Last edited by Glorelendil on Fri Jan 09, 2015 6:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Balancing Virtues and Rewards

Post by Falenthal » Fri Jan 09, 2015 6:11 am

I'm in love with the Wood-Elf Archer cliché. It's my favourite character in every RPG I've played. So I agree fully with boosting it in TOR, where Wood-elves are better spearmen than archers.

In fact, I think they are far too good spearmen: Bitter Great Spear + Spearman's Shield + High Wits result in a melee warrior with high damage output AND great parry. I always thought of changing one of the rewards (Bitter Spear or Spearman's Shield) to something more related to bows, but didn't come up with any good ideas. A "Bowman's Shield" has been my only idea so far (+1 to Parry for archers), but it seems too powerful to increase even more the difficulty to hit someone in Rearward Stance AND with the highest Wits in the game. Besides, spearelves with the Shadow Bane Virtue really need a boost to Parry.

That said, about your changes:
[dwarves' small knives, the only weapons they had] 'would have been of no use against the arrows of the elves that could hit a bird's eye in the dark'.
Great to eliminate hindrances to attacks when in the dark (a way of applying Folk of the Dusk to weapons) or in Mirkwood (weird that they should hunt in the depths of the forest with a TN 12+4 (severely hindered) + Parry).

I also like the others: only Stinging Arrow needs Hope, which is fine (scoring a Pierce is very good, after all). Two of the three upgrades consist in a deadlier aim (raising Wounding chances instead of pure Damage output), which I agree is more consistent with elves.
With Stinging Arrow and Patient Hunter, an elf can spend one round of preparation and one Hope point to achieve that so needed second Wound to Trolls and such. Great combination, but with a Hope cost, so no elf will be able to abuse it.

In fact, as a general guideline, I think that elven archers' boosts should improve their ability to inflict Wounds (lower Edge, higher Injury, automatic Pierce,...) rather than increasing damage.

Also, in the writings about the War of the Last Alliance it is said that Mirkwood bows where thin weapons, and had a hard time piercing the metal armors of their foes. This can be taken into account when thinking about lowering the Injury, but I still find Patient Hunter great.

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