evil men vs. Evil Men

[Tolwen]

Be aware that there are several extant versions of how Saruman handled that situation; the above is but one possibility (but an awesome possibility).

I just checked again. It is indeed that the events differ a bit in the versions, but the important part (Saruman being able to convince the Black Riders with less than the full truth - and some lying) remains fairly similar.

But while going through that, I also found an interesting complementary bit in version B, which follows largely version A (the originally posted story above) otherwise. It is about Mirkwood in that time (i.e. 3017; shortly before the end of the Third Age) and an era when Dol Guldur was quite strong again (probably at its peak shortly before the planned great war):

It is thus most likely that the first news of Gollum would be learned by the servants of Dol Guldur after Aragorn entered the Forest [probably somewhere between the Old Road and the Forest Gate]; for though the power of Dol Guldur was supposed to come to an end at the Old Forest Road, its spies were many in the wood.
―Unfinished Tales.IV The Hunt for the Ring (ii)

The same passage is a treasure trove indeed, as there is also another very informative bit that refers to our former question of how the Dunlanders viewed the orcs with whom they were allied at Helm's Deep:

Some while ago one of Saruman's most trusted servants (yet a ruffianly fellow, an outlaw driven from Dunland, where many said that he had Orcblood) [...]
―Unfinished Tales.IV The Hunt for the Ring (ii)

From this, our supposition that the orcs were probably seen as a necessary evil (and thus tolerated grudgingly) and the Dunlendings weren't aware (or even approved) of Saruman's half-orc breeding program is supported.
We are not told for exactly which reason he was cast out from Dunland (being orc-blooded or something else), but the fact that the orc-blood is mentioned in this context suggests that this is seen as something objectionable in itself, independently from other issues. Perhaps not enough to drive you out straight away, but making you suspicious of anything bad that happens around

Cheers
Tolwen

[Glorelendil]

Is it just me, or does "Evil Men vs Evil Men" sound like it could be the next Peter Jackson film?

[Angelalex242]

evil men=3 or 4 points of permanent shadow. Evil Men=5 points of permanent shadow.

Much simpler.

[Glorelendil]

evil men=3 or 4 points of permanent shadow. Evil Men=5 points of permanent shadow.

Much simpler.

Non-player Characters don't have Shadow points.

[Rocmistro]

I think Angela's repsonse was meant to be some admixture of tongue-in-cheek and irony.

In any event, I actually think it's a good way to define the two sub-categories in mathematical terms that typically only apply to Heroes.

[Angelalex242]

I also describe it that way because it lets players know THEY could become evil men...or even Evil Men...if they don't watch their shadow scores.

[Eluadin]

Yeah, I guess. My concern is to have a reasonable answer to questions like 'does Shadow Bane apply to Viglar?'

No and yes, at least in my campaign it played out this way. No at the start, Viglar was wicked and evil when Saviga's influence (Persuade skill ranks) prevailed over him. But, he was too petty at the start and, as the Loremaster, I number Viglar among evil men plaguing the Anduin Vales. As the campaign progressed and Viglund's fortunes waned driving him towards 'madness' (i.e., if he were a player-hero: more and more permanent Shadow as he reels into the clutches of Madness), both Viglund and Viglar stumbled towards that 'Evil' where they became vulnerable to the Shadow Bane virtue. A time eventually came when Viglar stepped out from under Saviga's influence and himself sowed evil among the remnants of his father's haggard-folk. That brought the Viglundings into the realm of evil men, and Viglar rose up as an Evil Man.

and 'what does Evil Men-lore allow me to do?'

A player-hero can discern the difference between petty and wicker men, evil men and Evil Men for example. Frodo and Gandalf's rumination comes to mind: "For even the very wise cannot see all ends. I have not much hope that Gollum can be cured before he dies, but there is a chance of it." I imagine Gandalf's lore of Evil Men stands behind his insight into Gollum. And, such counsel during a campaign, or a player-heroes own insight can provide the catalyst to Unforeseen Action for example.

Not much of a binary answer I know, but it worked throughout my campaign "Departure and Homecoming."

Regards,
Scott

[Glorelendil]

and 'what does Evil Men-lore allow me to do?'

A player-hero can discern the difference between petty and wicker men, evil men and Evil Men for example. Frodo and Gandalf's rumination comes to mind: "For even the very wise cannot see all ends. I have not much hope that Gollum can be cured before he dies, but there is a chance of it." I imagine Gandalf's lore of Evil Men stands behind his insight into Gollum. And, such counsel during a campaign, or a player-heroes own insight can provide the catalyst to Unforeseen Action for example.

I like that answer quite a bit.

[Eluadin]

I like that answer quite a bit.

Thanks!

[zedturtle]

and 'what does Evil Men-lore allow me to do?'

A player-hero can discern the difference between petty and wicker men, evil men and Evil Men for example. Frodo and Gandalf's rumination comes to mind: "For even the very wise cannot see all ends. I have not much hope that Gollum can be cured before he dies, but there is a chance of it." I imagine Gandalf's lore of Evil Men stands behind his insight into Gollum. And, such counsel during a campaign, or a player-heroes own insight can provide the catalyst to Unforeseen Action for example.

I like that answer quite a bit.

I do as well.

- - - - -

My only worry now is that Shadow Bane has become Detect Evil but since engaging in combat with friendlies is worth Shadow points, I think it's a reasonable solution.