evil men vs. Evil Men

[Glorelendil]

My only worry now is that Shadow Bane has become Detect Evil but since engaging in combat with friendlies is worth Shadow points, I think it's a reasonable solution.

Oh, you're right: if you are attuned to the difference between "Servant of the Shadow" and "unfortunate wretch", then it puts a different moral burden on you than it would for somebody who can't tell the difference.

[Angelalex242]

Well...consider who HAS the Shadow Bane virtue in the first place.

A higher level of ethics is usually placed on those races to begin with. Even on good old Mirkwood Elves.

[Terisonen]

Or my be the prerequisites for an evil wrench would be to have Hate Point...

[zedturtle]

Or my be the prerequisites for an evil wrench would be to have Hate Point...

It becomes vastly more complicated than that when you're the one writing the stat block. For example, the thralls in my adventure The Theft of the Moon have Hate points (in order to have something to do in combat) and the mercenary has Hate only so that Craven can activate if the heroes intimidate him. The thralls aren't evil though, their families are being held at knifepoint.

[Falenthal]

Or my be the prerequisites for an evil wrench would be to have Hate Point...

In the first adventure of Darkening, the Servants of Tyrant Hill have Hate points, but in fact their story tells us that they are (still) not evil, they're just trying to survive in a hostil enviroment. In fact, it is the heroe's actions that can decide if they turn to Sauron or if they'll give their back to the Dark Lord.

[Angelalex242]

Those guys sound like they have a permanent shadow point, maybe even 2, but they're not hopeless yet. They can still be saved, even if they'll never be fully free of darkness.

[Terisonen]

So we can considers all creatures twisted by Sauron or Morgoth or derived, which qualified for Orc, Troll, Dragon, or creatures who as trodded with Necromancy, like Vampires, Ringwraiths, Mouth of Sauron, or with primal evil like Ungoliant, Shelob and his many intelligents spiders offsprings in Mirkwood.

[zedturtle]

So we can considers all creatures twisted by Sauron or Morgoth or derived, which qualified for Orc, Troll, Dragon, or creatures who as trodded with Necromancy, like Vampires, Ringwraiths, Mouth of Sauron, or with primal evil like Ungoliant, Shelob and his many intelligents spiders offsprings in Mirkwood.

Hmm. Ungoliant, Shelob and her offspring seem to be beyond the purview of Morgoth. I know they don't count as forces of the Enemy for some of the game rules.

[thegiffman]

Hmm. Ungoliant, Shelob and her offspring seem to be beyond the purview of Morgoth. I know they don't count as forces of the Enemy for some of the game rules.

That's always been something that's fascinated me about Tolkien's worldview (which is essentially classical Christianity) - that, since evil is essentially parasitic, "pure evil" isn't really something that can exist. Morgoth, even at his worst, maintains some sense of wanting to build something, or an aspiration for greatness, etc. This doesn't mean he isn't terribly evil - it just means that his evil has to have some goodness in it to be sustainable. Ungoliant, on the other hand, is the embodiment of "pure evil" and consequently ultimately consumes herself.

This means, paradoxically, that "corrupted good" is a much bigger threat than "pure evil".

[bluejay]

Interesting comment Giffman particularly in line with one of Tolkien's letters (246) where he says that if Gandalf had taken the ring he would have been far worse than Sauron.