evil men vs. Evil Men

[zedturtle]

The Theft of the Moon and its sequel Dead of Winter focus on the conflict between the Beornings and the Viglundings for a couple of reasons: a) it interests me and b) it's been implied that it won't be the subject of official development (since it was included to help keep the Beornings 'off-camera' for the Darkening of Mirkwood). But it's also raised some interesting questions with my playtesters, which I think come up fairly often in discussions of Tolkien... in other words, the evilness of Men.

Most people talk about the Black & White nature of Tolkien, but I think that's a very surface level reading of the material. Sure, Orcs are unredeemable by the Children of Illúvatar, but others are not. Saruman is given the chance for redemption by Gandalf, Gríma by Frodo, and Smeagol/Gollum is almost saved by Frodo. Theoden is saved from despair by Gandalf. So it's not like once you give into despair or corruption that you can't regain your heroic status, although it is very difficult.

And it is a world of hard choices: Aragorn's decision to pursue Merry and Pippin is a hard choice. It is the right choice, but that doesn't mean abandoning the quest to save the world in order to rescue the 'baggage' from the orcs was an easy choice. And Men don't always make the right choices: the life of Túrin Turambar is a study in bad choices, but he's still mentioned by Elrond as a elf-friend and a hero of old.

So, that's a long-winded way of getting to my actual subject matter: when does a man who commits evil acts (or makes wrong choices) become an Evil Man?

And, is it right for the heroes to face men with evil intent? Some say that it's not very Tolkien, but the battles at Helm's Deep and the Pelennor Fields had men on both sides, plus the skirmishes in Ithilien. C7 has continued to offer us men making bad decisions, from Viglund and Viglar to Mogdred, the inhabitants of the Toft, etc.

What can be done to make it so that the heroes can fight evil men (or Evil Men) and still feel like they're Tolkienesque heroes?

[Stormcrow]

You can fight men, but you can slaughter orcs. No matter how badly they've screwed up, men can always be redeemed; orcs were wholly corrupted by Morgoth and can never be redeemed. After 500 years of being consumed by the Ring, both Gandalf and Frodo held out hope that Gollum could be saved.

[zedturtle]

You can fight men, but you can slaughter orcs. No matter how badly they've screwed up, men can always be redeemed; orcs were wholly corrupted by Morgoth and can never be redeemed. After 500 years of being consumed by the Ring, both Gandalf and Frodo held out hope that Gollum could be saved.

That's great, and in line with what I was saying. But the question remains... what does an evil man have to do to become an Evil Man and thus trigger certain mechanical effects?

And, how do you make players comfortable with fighting evil men?

[Glorelendil]

That's great, and in line with what I was saying. But the question remains... what does an evil man have to do to become an Evil Man and thus trigger certain mechanical effects?

And, how do you make players comfortable with fight evil men?

The first question, although hard to answer, is still easier to answer than the second question.

As I suggested in another thread, on test would be: "When the war starts, whose side will they join?" If the answer is "the good guys" then they are non-evil men. If the answer is "neither, they'll prey on both sides" then thy are "evil men", lowercase. And if the answer is "Sauron's team" then they are Evil Men. I'm not saying that's THE answer, just a possible solution.

As for making the players comfortable with killing them...that's a really tough one.

[zedturtle]

As I suggested in another thread, one test would be: "When the war starts, whose side will they join?" If the answer is "the good guys" then they are non-evil men. If the answer is "neither, they'll prey on both sides" then thy are "evil men", lowercase. And if the answer is "Sauron's team" then they are Evil Men. I'm not saying that's THE answer, just a possible solution.

Yeah, and I appreciated the answer here and there. It just feels incomplete to me... like we don't know what lies Saruman told the Hill Men (and they must have been good ones too, for them to fight alongside Orcs), and they certainly were evil men (and maybe Evil Men), but I'm not sure if you went up to Joe Hillman and asked him if he served the Dark Lord that you'd get a 'absolutely, yes!' answer out of him.

[Seosaidh]

Also remember, after the Battle of Helm's Deep, the Hillman surrendered and the Rohirrim didn't kill them. Instead, they had them help clean up the bodies and then (I think) let them go back to Dunlend. I vaguely remember reading that the Hillman were surprised at this treatment, since Saruman had told them that the Rohirrim were vicious and bloodthirsty men who cut out the hearts of their prisoners (or something like that).

[Glorelendil]

Ok, good points.

But if "believing the lies of Sauron" excuses one for evil acts, who is really evil in Middle Earth?

[zedturtle]

Also remember, after the Battle of Helm's Deep, the Hillman surrendered and the Rohirrim didn't kill them. Instead, they had them help clean up the bodies and then (I think) let them go back to Dunlend. I vaguely remember reading that the Hillman were surprised at this treatment, since Saruman had told them that the Rohirrim were vicious and bloodthirsty men who cut out the hearts of their prisoners (or something like that).

Right.

Showing mercy to defeated Men is always the right choice, but not necessarily an easy one (c.f above).

Do you think that Legolas was able to use his Shadow Bane virtue against the Hillmen?

[Glorelendil]

Maybe Shadow Bane only works against Men while they are working for Sauron. As soon as they repent, it no longer works against them because they are no longer Servants of Shadow. That is, "Evil Men" is not really a moral statement, it's more like an occupation.

[thegiffman]

As for making the players comfortable with killing them...that's a really tough one.

Aye, there's the rub! I suppose really the answer ought to be - the moment they become "comfortable" killing them, we've left Tolkien's moral vision behind. Or at least the players and characters have become the sorts of people in Middle Earth that Tolkien wouldn't praise. There's a strong sense of "love the sinner, hate the sin" in Tolkien, and the professor himself admitted in one of his letters that he was troubled by the presence of orcs in his own mythology - of creatures truly beyond redemption.

The closest look we got to men fighting men in Tolkien is the Ithilian chapters in Two Towers. And there we see Sam's sympathetic look at the dead soldier from Harad. If I were to put my adventurers in with Faramir's company, I'd say they'd fight to defend their home, but there would still be some sense of chivalry and honor, even though the Haradrim are allies of Sauron. Think of the Illiad - where Greeks fight with courage and implacable will, and yet the narrative pauses to consider the life of the Trojan who would never return to his fine homestead.

So when fighting men, like in Homer, the players should be of a mind to praise their courage and valor and fighting prowess, and grieve their loss, even though the enemy cause is evil. With orcs it is different - there is only relief that the world is rid of their evil.