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Stormcrow wrote:Well, I disagree with this advice, for the exact reason the original poster discovered: all that dice-rolling is tedious when you keep interrupting it. If you just say, "Roll seven fatigue tests, keep track of how much fatigue you accumulate--don't put it on your character sheets yet--and tell me how many hazards you get," players will do some roll-roll-rolling, and then get straight on with play.

Personally, that just sounds horrid to me and allows no reaction to how journey's develop as they progress. Even if you take the RAW and only apply fatigue at the end of the journey (which I'm sure most people don't do and rather apply it as it occurs) is still seems incredibly unsatisfying.

Stormcrow wrote:* Make all fatigue tests and note all fatigue incurred and hazards triggered.
* The loremaster describes the journey in general terms.
* Play out hazards; these are not "interrupting encounters."
* The loremaster summarizes the experience of the journey.
* Party arrives at destination; apply fatigue now.

Yeah, not impressed with that - sounds more like a boardgame rather than an RPG and not really in keeping with how Tolkien presented journeys, and their ebb and flow, within his stories.

SirKicley wrote:As for Fatigue: my format follows this tested formula...

... And what SirKicley advises in his post is pretty much spot on for how I approach things. Fatigue rolls are interspersed by role-playing, discussions, interesting elements (clues discovered, foreshadowing, bits of lore, etc) so are hardly tedious; least in my games.

Rich H wrote:Yeah, not impressed with that - sounds more like a boardgame rather than an RPG

Eh? It's too much like a board game to do all the rolling first and then get on with the "narration"? Aside from Hazards, the only thing Fatigue tests tell you is whether you gain Fatigue at the journey's end. Why would each roll--presumably equidistant-in-the-same-terrain--necessarily indicate a natural "narration cut"?

Get the rolls over with, determine the Hazards, and then the Loremaster has a complete picture of the journey which he can ham up to his heart's content. Describe the road, the people living along it, the Wild. Hazards are moments of role-play. If players want to take the storytelling initiative and play out an unscheduled chat with each other, let them. Get the mechanical stuff out of the way, then use the results to improvise the story.

I, for one, would hate to expect the Loremaster to go all amateur-thespian on me every single time we rolled a Fatigue test.

As for comparing this to Tolkien, when nothing interesting happens on a journey, he summarizes it. The Fellowship traveling south from Rivendell, Bilbo, Gandalf, and Beorn traveling around Mirkwood after the Battle of Five Armies, Bilbo and the dwarves traveling from Beorn's house to the Forest Gate. He doesn't make the characters have an irrelevant conversation every five days just because.

Fatigue rolls are interspersed by role-playing, discussions, interesting elements (clues discovered, foreshadowing, bits of lore, etc) so are hardly tedious; least in my games.

But why not front-load the Fatigue tests, and then have all the discussions, clues, foreshadowing, and lore without interrupting them arbitrarily with dice rolls?

Stormcrow wrote:

Fatigue rolls are interspersed by role-playing, discussions, interesting elements (clues discovered, foreshadowing, bits of lore, etc) so are hardly tedious; least in my games.

But why not front-load the Fatigue tests, and then have all the discussions, clues, foreshadowing, and lore without interrupting them arbitrarily with dice rolls?

I hear what you're saying here SC. I get that rolling all dice at the beginning gets it out of the way, and by all means that's a very logical way to resolve. It sounds like it seems to working for you and your group, which is good to hear. It obviously doesn't work for everyone - myself included.

The two most important points I'll make for not doing it all at the beginning are: (at least as it is in my experience)

1) Rolling dice at the moment of need creates a bit more suspense. Compared to having them all rolled at once and noting whether things were failed/succeeded removes a little of the surprise element. Knowing....oh two from the next one I failed and we should probably have a Hazard......isn't suspenseful. On the other hand having just narrated something and closing that out by saying 6 days have past since.....(fill in the blank).....you are standing on the edge of (fill in the blank), and you're ready to begin the new day.....time for another Fatigue Test. Now players sit up and take notice.....the fear, the unknowing and the hope of a good roll, the interaction that comes from cleverly using a trait at this point, as it applies to the current territory they're standing in. This is all "in the moment".

2) If all dice were rolled and there isn't a failure for a great distance, that's a lot of ground to cover with very little interaction from the players. Sure the LM does his narration, and colorizes it, and flowerizes it etc. But the players are merely an audience and not participants.

In contrast by splitting up the rolls and making an obvious pausing point between chapters, it allows the players to feel that they have some way to interject to the LM and to one-another. Otherwise it's just "colorization.......now you're here, it's been 22 days......colorization". I as a player would feel robbed - I would have liked to interact with the woods or the fields, or fishing in the river, etc. I would have liked to talk about things that are important to my calling, my traits, my background. Carving a pipe, or drying my weeds, or tending wounds from the previous battle, etc.

This just works better for us. And one counter-point about the way the book was written and summarizes days passed - the difference is that's a book written by one person. The characters were not sitting idly by waiting for a chance to talk and interject their thoughts. The writer controlled it all. In an RPG, it's interactive, not just players sitting there listing to a LM read. They want to be involved. They want to be heard. They want to stretch their imagination muscles a bit and interact with the story and people and each other. So simply summarizing the past 20+ days does them a disservice IMO. If all they're doing is just waiting for the next thing the LM has to throw at them, that may work for some players, but not all. For many they want to feel more important than that and feel like they contribute to the story - not just follow the bouncing ball.


Robert

Stormcrow wrote:Eh? It's too much like a board game to do all the rolling first and then get on with the "narration"?

Those amounts of dice rolling, and having to track where a hazard occurs etc, yes I do. You're welcome to the way you play it and by the same token, so am I.

Stormcrow wrote:Aside from Hazards, the only thing Fatigue tests tell you is whether you gain Fatigue at the journey's end. Why would each roll--presumably equidistant-in-the-same-terrain--necessarily indicate a natural "narration cut"?

Yes, I think this is an element of the RAW that needs working with. Personally, I think the rules work better for any fatigue to be applied as it is gained. That adds interaction and development to the journey and allows characters to react to it. Even without that house rule though I'd avoid rolling everything up front.

Stormcrow wrote:Get the rolls over with, determine the Hazards, and then the Loremaster has a complete picture of the journey which he can ham up to his heart's content. Describe the road, the people living along it, the Wild. Hazards are moments of role-play. If players want to take the storytelling initiative and play out an unscheduled chat with each other, let them. Get the mechanical stuff out of the way, then use the results to improvise the story.

Works for you but not for me. I like my rolling and RPing to be intertwined, not separate elements, as one actively supports the other.

Stormcrow wrote:I, for one, would hate to expect the Loremaster to go all amateur-thespian on me every single time we rolled a Fatigue test.

/Snark ignored, thanks!

Stormcrow wrote:As for comparing this to Tolkien, when nothing interesting happens on a journey, he summarizes it. The Fellowship traveling south from Rivendell, Bilbo, Gandalf, and Beorn traveling around Mirkwood after the Battle of Five Armies, Bilbo and the dwarves traveling from Beorn's house to the Forest Gate. He doesn't make the characters have an irrelevant conversation every five days just because.

Neither do I. Players get involved during it, rolling dice and narrating, bouncing ideas off of me and the other players, failed fatigue rolls offering RPing opportunities based on the point they're at in the journey, requesting tests based on their current circumstances, etc. It all weaves together and has never felt tedious within my game. Quite the contrary. This would all be much harder, or even impossible, for me and my group if all the journey rolls were placed 'up front' as there'd simply be no context to them. It would be a very flat experience which is why it would feel like a board game (I'm doing many board games a huge disservice here as they are far more involved than that).

Stormcrow wrote:

Fatigue rolls are interspersed by role-playing, discussions, interesting elements (clues discovered, foreshadowing, bits of lore, etc) so are hardly tedious; least in my games.

But why not front-load the Fatigue tests, and then have all the discussions, clues, foreshadowing, and lore without interrupting them arbitrarily with dice rolls?

See previous comments but they aren't interrupted and very often the rolls resulting from the journey feed into further rolls. For instance I may not apply fatigue rolls every 5 days but have some following in quick succession based/depending on the journey, any hazards, as part of an actual adventure site/location, or whatever takes my fancy. Rolling as part of the developing journey naturally gives me that option rather than, at least for me, the alternative of rolls all front-loaded before the journey begins.

EDIT: Also, lots of cool stuff in Robert's post!

Rich H wrote:Those amounts of dice rolling, and having to track where a hazard occurs etc, yes I do.

You don't keep track of where Hazards occur. You roll all the Fatigue tests, and if Hazards occur, the Loremaster makes them happen at whatever location and time he wants. The only thing the dice-rolling determines is how many Hazards occur.

As for the I-can-do-it-my-way comments, of course you can! When did I ever say you couldn't?

SirKicley wrote:As for Fatigue: my format follows this tested formula: I ask the players to roll fatigue. Each time fatigue is rolled - it's a "cut-scene" for the players to interact and discuss etc.

Using the P.Jackson movies as fodder: they're walking, walking, walking......Fatigue test....roll in with "second breakfast" conversation. They're walking walking walking.....Fatigue Test....."That's the watchtower of Amon Sul". Walking Walking Walking...."if anyone were to ask me....which they have not - I'd say we were talking the LONG way around" (the Misty Mountains). Walking walking walking....."some people believe there ARE no dwarven women" Walking walking walking......"come on, Gimli" "no sign of our quarry save for what bare-rock can tell."

So in a way - it's a chance to break up the monotony of the tests, etc, and allows the PCs to reflect on events, discuss their fears, their hopes, enter their personality. And of course explore their traits that make them who they are: one may take the opportunity to describe their hobbit smoking Longbottom leaf (smoking trait). One hobbit may decide he's preparing a great meal for the road (cooking trait). Perhaps they're crafting more arrows, or sharpening their blades, picking wildflowers, weeds, etc that may provide useful (Herblore). Etc.
Robert

See, my players have no 'inner thespian' to want to work out there motivations, talk amongst themselves about their characters, or the like. They want to interact with the world, through Encounters or Combat (they are 'doers').

So, in the case of Rich H's adventure, they enjoyed interacting with the lake-porters, they enjoyed the Hermit (until it didn't work anymore), they enjoyed the Orc fight.

The problems arose with the 25 days or so of travel BETWEEN events (hence the 5-7 Travel rolls--heck I can't even remember the exact number now). None of them want to roll 4-7 times, essentially for the sake of rolling.

It wouldn't be as much of a problem on shorter journeys, but Mirkwood is something like 210 miles across---of just frickin' trees. Unless there is a Hazard, or an Event/Encounter, nothing breaks up the die rolling for long stretches. And nothing is accomplished that couldn't be done in ONE roll.

Hence the plan to just roll ONCE before the actual Event/Encounter, with the same TN, but just get all your Fatigue at once, mitigated by success Tengwars.

Stormcrow wrote: This isn't correct. You only roll for Corruption in Blighted Places if you are in a place that specifically calls for it. This is clarified in the old forum and in the Laketown book. You don't need to roll for Corruption for each day spent in Mirkwood. The place isn't necessarily evil, just dark and strange.

See, I agree that Wild Lands in general shouldn't force Corruption rolls. Shadow Lands probably only in certain areas (the catacombs in the Mewlips adventure, for example). Personally, I made my players roll ONE corruption roll when they entered the Long Marshes where it hits the forest, just to mechanically impress on them the oppressive nature of the forest and thematically say 'this is a dark region'.

But certain areas (the Mountains of Mirkwood region, or Southern Mirkwood) I would consider Blighted Places (they're considered 'Dark Lands' for a reason, and they are home to Giant Spiders, evil spirits, werewolves, vampires, the Necromancer, etc). If those whole regions are not Blighted, then what is the point of having Corruption tests per day (or even twice per day) listed in the rules? It's not like the players are going to set up homes in the outer courtyard of Dol Guldur and hang around for weeks on end.

That would assume that a player could walk through the entirety of southern Mirkwood, and not feel any Corruption until he walked through the gates of Dol Guldur and sat on Sauron's throne for a half day or so. That doesn't sit right by me.

Stormcrow wrote:You don't keep track of where Hazards occur. You roll all the Fatigue tests, and if Hazards occur, the Loremaster makes them happen at whatever location and time he wants. The only thing the dice-rolling determines is how many Hazards occur.

You may not but I do. Where they occur within the journey give me some good guidance and a steer as to what they could be or the form they could take.

Stormcrow wrote: As for the I-can-do-it-my-way comments, of course you can! When did I ever say you couldn't?

You didn't and I don't recall stating that you did.

ThrorII, I think your one roll idea is a much better one than rolling the dice all in one go. I'd ould interested to hear how it goes. I suppose my only concerns would be that fatigue will rarely be completely negated in the longer journeys. Beyond successes reducing the amount of fatigue is it possible that spending Hope could do the same?