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OK, so I finally got a chance to run a game for my group. I've played rpg's and GM'd for over 25 years. My players range from as much experience as me, to just a few years experience.

I ran them through a slightly house-ruled version of 'To Journeys End and Eagle's Eyrie' by Rich H, where instead of the Eagles, they were to bring a gift and request to Beorn, as well as test the Old Road for possible future use.

While we love so much of the game, Journey's and Encounters blow hard....

Journeys were a series of mind-numbing dice rolling. No matter how much I describe the oppression of Mirkwood, the darkness, types of trees, etc., it can not make up for the fact that my players had to roll 7 Fatigue challenges (1 on the boats in the Long Marshes; 1 inside the forest before the Hermit encounter; and 5 inside the forest before the Orc encounter). Between the Hermit and the Orcs, my players were frustrated with roll after roll after roll, just to determine Fatigue. Plus rolling ONCE A DAY for Corruption(meaning 30 times over 30 days of travel!!!!!).

That is just a ridiculous amount of dice rolling for one nights adventure, that actually has little affect on the players until the next encounter.

Encounters were also frustrating. My players blew two Encounters due to Horrible rolls, despite really trying role-playing.

First, they encountered Galion the Elf, near the Marshes. They had a Tolerence of 2 only (no elves present). They could not meet a TN 14, even with Hope. The encounter ended in two rolls. They actually tried to role-play and be courteous, but the dice wouldn't have it.

Then, they encountered the Hermit of the Forest. Since we had three Woodsmen in the group, they had a Tolerance of 5 (2 for Wisdom, plus 1 per Woodmen). Well, their first Courtesy roll was an Eye of Sauron. Their second roll was an Eye of Sauron. By this time, they had offered him food, talked nice to him, and really tried. After two bad rolls, they could not recover, and gave up. Not from bad roleplaying, but from bad dice. They threatened him and got him to flee his own home, so they could sleep there. By that time, they didn't even care that they incurred Shadow points, they were so frustrated.

We are going to seriously simplify the Journey Fatigue rules. We are going to try to go with just one role per leg of a journey (per region, or between encounters in a region) and they will gain ALL Fatigue at one time on a failure. A success will lessen the Fatigue by 1, a great success will lessen it by 2, an extraordinary success will lessen it by 3. My players will revolt if I keep requiring die rolls as they walk through a forest on and on.

We're going to do the same for Corruption. One roll per Fatigue check (keep it all together) for a set number of Shadow points (1 pt for Wild Lands, 2 pts for Shadow Lands, and 4 pts for Dark Lands), lessened by Tengwar runes.

We are also just going to role-play Encounters for the while, until we can figure out a way to simplify the rules and not screw ourselves in the process.

Anyone else have these issues?

ThrorII wrote:Journeys were a series of mind-numbing dice rolling. No matter how much I describe the oppression of Mirkwood, the darkness, types of trees, etc., it can not make up for the fact that my players had to roll 7 Fatigue challenges (1 on the boats in the Long Marshes; 1 inside the forest before the Hermit encounter; and 5 inside the forest before the Orc encounter). Between the Hermit and the Orcs, my players were frustrated with roll after roll after roll, just to determine Fatigue. Plus rolling ONCE A DAY for Corruption(meaning 30 times over 30 days of travel!!!!!).

This isn't correct. You only roll for Corruption in Blighted Places if you are in a place that specifically calls for it. This is clarified in the old forum and in the Laketown book. You don't need to roll for Corruption for each day spent in Mirkwood. The place isn't necessarily evil, just dark and strange.

As for journeys, you have two choices. Either get the rolls over with all at once—don't bother "narrating" anything until afterward; there's only so many times people can listen to how oppressive Mirkwood is before they get tired of hearing it—or prepare an encounter along the journey to break it up into separate stages.

Regarding your Encounter issue, specifically with Galion, did any of the party members have 3 skill levels in any of the requisite skills for an Encounter? Courtesy, Insight, Riddle and the like? Because a TN of 14 shouldn't be difficult to reach with 3 levels, especially when Hope is included. Equally, were any of your players using their Traits? You point out that they really tried roleplaying, which is great, and makes bad rolls even more of a blow, but Traits can often be used to help reflect the roleplaying in a conversation. On the other hand, you as LM can always give your players a little bonus for good roleplaying, maybe lowering the TN by one level or giving a +1 or +2 to the roll.

Just my thoughts. On the other hand, your players could have just been having a bad day with the dice :/

Stormcrow wrote:This isn't correct. You only roll for Corruption in Blighted Places if you are in a place that specifically calls for it. This is clarified in the old forum and in the Laketown book. You don't need to roll for Corruption for each day spent in Mirkwood. The place isn't necessarily evil, just dark and strange.

This is the full text relating to this from my adventure:

Journeying through Mirkwood is very hard, so it will take the company many days to cross the whole forest. The journey is divided into a number of phases to account for the differing terrain:

• The road as it passes south of the Mountains of Mirkwood to the centre of the forest calls for 7 fatigue tests at TN 16

• The final leg of the journey through Mirkwood calls for 2 fatigue tests also at TN 16

Instead of rolling everything at once, the Loremaster should split these tests up between other encounters and/or every 5 days of the journey (ie, should the season be spring), Narrating and presenting the journey as an ongoing adventure, reacting to character actions/decisions as well as hazards and role-playing opportunities.

Loremaster Note
I recommend referring to my compilation of additional rules and in particular the following chapters:

• Additional Journey Rules
• Additional Hazards
• Interesting Events

These provide extra rules variations which provide more interesting opportunities within the system for players to involve themselves within a journey, etc.

Corruption Tests
Certain areas along the Forest Road, particularly south of the mountains should be considered blighted areas and therefore the company should make Corruption Tests every day while travelling through them as the darkness of the forest weighs heavily on the company’s spirits. The Loremaster should subject the company to such blights sparingly – used to increase tension or if the journey is proving too easy (eg, no fatigue has been gained).

This quite clearly suggests that you break up the Fatigue Tests using the additional rules, hazards, and interesting events from my rules compilation; or at least narrate the journey as an ongoing adventure. In addition, the section on Corruption Tests refers to areas that are considered Blighted and provides guidance on when to employ them.

As far as Encounters go, we had a similar issue (and by the way, it's not specific to TOR; any RPG with social skills will have similar issues).

After a few sessions, I proposed something to my group: we would make the rolls beforehand, and then the players get to act out the results. In other words, it becomes more of an acting interaction instead of a "selling" (in the sense that the player tries to convince the LM by acting "in character") interaction. Since then, we have enjoyed Encounters a whole lot more, especially since we hear the character more than the player during encounters.

Rich H wrote:Instead of rolling everything at once, the Loremaster should split these tests up between other encounters and/or every 5 days of the journey (ie, should the season be spring), Narrating and presenting the journey as an ongoing adventure, reacting to character actions/decisions as well as hazards and role-playing opportunities.

Well, I disagree with this advice, for the exact reason the original poster discovered: all that dice-rolling is tedious when you keep interrupting it. If you just say, "Roll seven fatigue tests, keep track of how much fatigue you accumulate--don't put it on your character sheets yet--and tell me how many hazards you get," players will do some roll-roll-rolling, and then get straight on with play.

The way the rules work, fatigue is not applied until you return to a regular encounter--not when you detail a hazard. This means either the party has reached its destination or the loremaster has decided to interrupt the journey with an encounter. Assuming there is no interruption planned, you can make all your fatigue tests at once and save the accumulated fatigue until any hazards are dealt with.

So, once the journey has been planned...

* Make all fatigue tests and note all fatigue incurred and hazards triggered.
* The loremaster describes the journey in general terms.
* Play out hazards; these are not "interrupting encounters."
* The loremaster summarizes the experience of the journey.
* Party arrives at destination; apply fatigue now.

If the loremaster plans to interrupt the party, he can call for fewer fatigue tests at the start of the journey. The sequence above happens, but the journey is considered "completed" and fatigue is applied before the encounter begins.

Essentially, journeys take place in a different "mode" than encounters.

There's also a modified Journey Rules, that Francesco provided. It requires far fewer dice rolls.

Many of us do not prefer it because it's 'too simplistic' and greatly waters down the the diversity and danger. However for those who haven't yet figured out the magical sweet-spot for when/how often to use these mechanics, it may be worth exploring.


As for Fatigue: my format follows this tested formula: I ask the players to roll fatigue. Each time fatigue is rolled - it's a "cut-scene" for the players to interact and discuss etc.

Using the P.Jackson movies as fodder: they're walking, walking, walking......Fatigue test....roll in with "second breakfast" conversation. They're walking walking walking.....Fatigue Test....."That's the watchtower of Amon Sul". Walking Walking Walking...."if anyone were to ask me....which they have not - I'd say we were talking the LONG way around" (the Misty Mountains). Walking walking walking....."some people believe there ARE no dwarven women" Walking walking walking......"come on, Gimli" "no sign of our quarry save for what bare-rock can tell."

So in a way - it's a chance to break up the monotony of the tests, etc, and allows the PCs to reflect on events, discuss their fears, their hopes, enter their personality. And of course explore their traits that make them who they are: one may take the opportunity to describe their hobbit smoking Longbottom leaf (smoking trait). One hobbit may decide he's preparing a great meal for the road (cooking trait). Perhaps they're crafting more arrows, or sharpening their blades, picking wildflowers, weeds, etc that may provide useful (Herblore). Etc.

My players have adopted this methodology, and it creates some great roleplaying between players. If there's an NPC traveling with them, it gives them a chance to converse and learn some things (like they did with the boy and his father on "Don't Leave the Path" in Tales of Wilderland. The players often discuss previous encounters, if someone is suffering from fatigue, or shadow points, or low Hope or what-have-you. They put that into their conversation about not feeling right, or feeling "stretched - like butter scraped across too much bread" type comments when they're feeling down.

Anyways - just some ideas for gameplay.....ymmv.


As for the Corruption Tests, you've already had the community here correct your methods on that. Many originally played it out as you have been - resulting in lots of Corruption Tests. Francesco politely told us that that rules as intended was being lost in translation and in fact to only do them in "blighted Places". Which despite Mirkwood being a dark, dangerous and often unpleasant place, only in a true blighted place would require those tests.

Robert

SirKicley wrote: Francesco politely told us that that rules as intended was being lost in translation and in fact to only do them in "blighted Places".

You are being too kind, Robert! The 'rules as intended' were partially lost in writing, so it is really my fault...

Thanks to everyone here for the corrections and good play advice!

Francesco

Francesco wrote:

SirKicley wrote: Francesco politely told us that that rules as intended was being lost in translation and in fact to only do them in "blighted Places".

You are being too kind, Robert! The 'rules as intended' were partially lost in writing, so it is really my fault...

Thanks to everyone here for the corrections and good play advice!

Francesco

Quite Right. But I find that often times, facts do nothing more than convolute a good story.

Robert

SirKicley wrote:Quite Right. But I find that often times, facts do nothing more than convolute a good story.

Indeed! But I didn't want to see the blame fall on someone else.

Francesco