Caliquendi

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bluejay
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Re: Caliquendi

Post by bluejay » Sat Jan 17, 2015 6:31 pm

I think also Gil-Galad was born in Middle Earth.

Not sure what Celebrian is given that Galadriel is Noldor and Celeborn is Sindar or Teleri. I think TOR avoids this beautifully by simply calling them High Elves and accepting that very few will be pure Noldor or Sindar.

Celebrimbor is another one who's all over the place and even in late letters Tolkien was saying he was a Sinda. It seems fitting that he's a Noldo and born in Middle Earth but I know there's never been a consistent background for him.
Last edited by bluejay on Sat Jan 17, 2015 6:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Stormcrow
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Re: Caliquendi

Post by Stormcrow » Sat Jan 17, 2015 6:41 pm

As I said, not clear.

Angelalex242
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Re: Caliquendi

Post by Angelalex242 » Sat Jan 17, 2015 6:54 pm

Well, what I was making up is something specifically for 'you have seen the Light of the Two Trees of Valinor.' That's far enough back in time that anyone who's seen them probably is a pure blood Noldor. The Vanyar, Noldor, and Sindar didn't intermarry much, if at all, back then.

bluejay
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Re: Caliquendi

Post by bluejay » Sat Jan 17, 2015 8:18 pm

You're absolutely right Angelalex.

So stripping it back to basics may I ask what you'd expect them to be able to do? I see Glorfindel and Galadriel quite differently.

On one side I think you can model a Glorfindel type of proactive High Elf hero fairly well with the High Elf culture from the Rivendell sourcebook. Against the Unseen, Enemy of Sauron and Might of the Firstborn all do a great job of standing against greater powers of the Shadow such as the Nazgul. They also largely represent the power of those who have seen the light of Aman if not the trees themselves.

Galadriel is a harder one I think and and largely because her powers are so undefined. Within Lothlorien while wielding Nenya I would say she is likely incredibly powerful although possibly under constant strain to hide, defend and preserve her realm. Again I believe she would be undaunted by the Nazgul and possibly even very dangerous in regular combat having been incredibly physical in her youth. She also clearly has access to many powers such as her mirror but possibly knowledge would be her greatest asset overall.

Fundamentally though I think it would be hard to introduce a character like this who didn't feel objectively better than the rest of the group. Sure they'd attract a ton of attention from the Eye but otherwise they would be higher skilled, far more knowledgeable, more noble, more vital and simply just way more powerful than the characters around them. Again understanding what your player wants out of the character would be interesting to know. I'd like to help if I can.
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Tolwen
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Re: Caliquendi

Post by Tolwen » Sat Jan 17, 2015 8:22 pm

bluejay wrote:I think also Gil-Galad was born in Middle Earth.
[...]
Celebrimbor is another one who's all over the place and even in late letters Tolkien was saying he was a Sinda. It seems fitting that he's a Noldo and born in Middle Earth but I know there's never been a consistent background for him.
Both of these topics have been discussed in OM articles (#3 for Celebrimbor and #10 for Gil-galad), and both are not easy to answer, given the tricky textual evidence. That can be solved though in context with the other parameters set by Tolkien. If you're interested, you might have a look at the respective articles.

For Celebrimbor, if you subscribe to the version that he is descended from Fëanor (cited in the LotR and thus high on the "canonicity scale"), he was born in Aman (and thus likely saw the light of the Two Trees):
J.R.R. Tolkien wrote:How could he be? Fëanor’s only descendants were his seven sons, six of whom reached Beleriand. So far nothing has been said of their wives and children. It seems probable that Celebrinbaur (silverfisted, > Celebrimbor) was son of Curufin, but though inheriting his skills he was an Elf of wholly different temper (his [Celebrimbor's] mother had refused to take part in the rebellion of Fëanor and remained in Aman with the people of Finarphin).
[...]
This passage also tells that Celebrimbor was a person who went into exile (and thus probably was born during the bliss of Aman): 28 But Curufin, dearest to his father and chief inheritor of his father’s skills, was wedded, and had a son who came with him into exile, though his wife (unnamed) did not.
—HoMe 12: The Atani and their languages (Note 7)
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bluejay
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Re: Caliquendi

Post by bluejay » Sat Jan 17, 2015 8:25 pm

Thank you Tolwen! Will look now!
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Tolwen
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Re: Caliquendi

Post by Tolwen » Sat Jan 17, 2015 10:01 pm

bluejay wrote:Thank you Tolwen! Will look now!
Happy to be of help. The info on Celebrimbor is an excursus in a longer article on the Rings of Power, while the one on Gil-galad is pretty straightforward labelled.

Cheers
Tolwen
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Láthspell
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Re: Calaquendi

Post by Láthspell » Sat Jan 24, 2015 10:30 pm

bluejay wrote: Not sure what Celebrian is given that Galadriel is Noldor and Celeborn is Sindar or Teleri. I think TOR avoids this beautifully by simply calling them High Elves and accepting that very few will be pure Noldor or Sindar.
Galadriel is actually only one fourth Noldor, she is also one fourth Vanyar, and half Falmari (which is the branch of the Teleri that travelled to Aman).

Celebrían is consequently, one eighth Vanyar, one eighth Noldor, one fourth Falmari, and half Sindar (which is one of several branches of the Teleri that remained in Middle Earth, namely the branch that travelled as far as the sea but did not cross over it).

There is also a third branch of the Teleri called the Nandor who all initially did not cross the Misty Mountains, and were later split into three distinct groups themselves. The Laiquendi (Green elves) of Beleriand, the Galadhrim (Tree people) of Lórien, and the Wood-elves of Mirkwood.

The Vanyar (Light elves), Noldor (Deep elves), and Falmari (Sea elves) are collectively known as the Calaquendi (High elves) as opposed to the Sindar (Grey elves), Nandor, and Avari (those who never travelled West at all and thus don't come into these tales) who are collectively called the Moriquendi (Dark elves). The one exception being King Thingol who, despite being a Sindar, is counted among the Calaquendi having been one of the original Elven ambassadors to Aman.

Thus the notably Calaquendi are Galadriel, Gildor Inglorion, and Glofindel, the later two being Noldor. The same probably goes for Erestor and Lindir.

Thranduil, Legolas, Celeborn, Galdor, and Círdan the Shipwright are all Sindar.

Elrond is not technically of the Calaquendi, having never been to Aman himself until he sails there at the end of the Third Age, and his genealogy is... complicated. In any case, we'll just call him the Half-elven and be done with it.

In any case, I completely agree that referring to the Elves by Cultures rather than blood-lines is a brilliant way to deal with the issue.

Angelalex242
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Re: Caliquendi

Post by Angelalex242 » Sat Jan 24, 2015 10:54 pm

Actually, sailing to Aman doesn't make you Caliquendi, because the Two Trees are still Darkened by the time Elrond gets there. You have to have been there before Ungoliant poisoned them to be counted Caliquendi.

Though it'd be an interesting mental excercise to wonder what'd happen to Bilbo, Frodo, Sam, and Gimli if the Two Trees were brought back somehow. They're not Eldar, but they ARE in Aman...

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