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Otaku-sempai wrote: ↑

Wed May 31, 2017 7:21 am

The error I caught had to do with Gandalf, though I'm sure that Saruman appreciated learning who the power was behind Dol Guldur. He might have even figured out the identity and significance of the dying Dwarf long before Gandalf realized that it was Thrain.

I just reread the pages in question and I'm confused. What's the actual "error" to which you are referring?

Glorelendil wrote: ↑

Thu Jun 01, 2017 1:31 pm

I just reread the pages in question and I'm confused. What's the actual "error" to which you are referring?

The text (Rivendell, pages 19 and 20) messes up when Gandalf discovers that the Necromancer of Dol Guldur is actually Sauron, ascribing the discovery to sometime just prior to the Quest of Erebor instead of in TA 2850, over ninety years earlier. The "Tale of Years" in the core rules relates it correctly.

Otaku-sempai wrote: ↑

Thu Jun 01, 2017 2:10 pm

The text messes up when Gandalf discovers that the Necromancer of Dol Guldur is actually Saruman,

Wow.

EDIT: This is pretty hilarious considering the thrust of this, your, thread and the fact you've edited your above post 2 times already and still not spotted the problem!

Otaku-sempai wrote: ↑

Wed May 31, 2017 7:21 am

No, but my point was that the information is not revealed until the War of the Ring, and the books don't delve very deeply into future events. Loremasters should be careful about how they use Saruman unless they want to spill the beans early. That said, Horse-lords of Rohan is much more clear and open about Saruman's betrayals and machinations.

That's one of the "complications" that a LM will have when running a campaign set in this time period. It's
compounded by the fact that pretty much everybody who is playing is going to know that Saruman is, or will become, a traitor.

It's also kinda hard to accept that Gandalf went into Orthanc (probably multiple times) and either didn't notice the signs that things were amiss (such as the orcs of the White Hand), or simply didn't believe what they indicated. I suspect that Saruman must have used his "Suasion" ability to make all that stuff seem perfectly reasonable to Gandalf and others.

Basically all the major players in the West just play a waiting game mostly on Saruman's advice. I suspect that they did so in part in the hopes that whatever was wrong would blow over if left alone.

The problem, from a RPGing standpoint, is that the PCs are going to be out there actively adventuring and either directly or indirectly, working against the whole "wait & see" attitude. Basically the PCs are catalysts, much like Gandalf. So, if the LM want's to stick to the established timeline, he always has to be careful that the PCs don't accelerate the course of events. Exposing Saruman is the matchstick that can really blow the whole powder keg right up.

Rich H wrote: ↑

Thu Jun 01, 2017 2:14 pm

Otaku-sempai wrote: ↑

Thu Jun 01, 2017 2:10 pm

The text messes up when Gandalf discovers that the Necromancer of Dol Guldur is actually [Sauron]...

Wow.

Yeah, it's strange when the text goes on about Gandalf further investigating Dol Guldur after the White Council of 2851. Uh...he doesn't do that. Gandalf already found out that the Necromancer is Sauron and informed the Council before he advised them to strike at Dol Guldur. Even knowing this, Saruman vetoed the proposal. Gandalf does not enter Dol Guldur again until the Council takes action in 2941. And even so, we never find out the details of what went down when Sauron fled Dol Guldur and returned to Mordor.

Otaku-sempai wrote: ↑

Thu Jun 01, 2017 2:27 pm

Rich H wrote: ↑

Thu Jun 01, 2017 2:14 pm

Otaku-sempai wrote: ↑

Thu Jun 01, 2017 2:10 pm

The text messes up when Gandalf discovers that the Necromancer of Dol Guldur is actually Saruman,

Wow.

Yeah, it's strange when the text goes on about Gandalf further investigating Dol Guldur after the White Council of 2851. Uh...he doesn't do that. Gandalf already found out that the Necromancer is Sauron and informed the Council before he advised them to strike at Dol Guldur. Even knowing this, Saruman vetoed the proposal. Gandalf does not enter Dol Guldur again until the Council takes action in 2941. And even so, we never find out the details of what went down when Sauron fled Dol Guldur and returned to Mordor.

No, I've read the text. It never says the necromancer is Saruman. You're making stuff up!

Rich H wrote: ↑

Thu Jun 01, 2017 2:33 pm

No, I've read the text. It never says the necromancer is Saruman. You're making stuff up!

No, but I DID mistype! SAURON not SARUMAN. Corrected.

Otaku-sempai wrote: ↑

Thu Jun 01, 2017 2:37 pm

Rich H wrote: ↑

Thu Jun 01, 2017 2:33 pm

No, I've read the text. It never says the necromancer is Saruman. You're making stuff up!

No, but I DID mistype! SAURON not SARUMAN. Corrected.

Chuffin' hilarious, considering.

Rich H wrote: ↑

Thu Jun 01, 2017 2:38 pm

Chuffin' hilarious, considering.

Maybe you should have edited the Rivendell manuscript! It evidently could have used at least one more pass.

I'm digging this alternate timeline for M-e. Saruman == Sauron. Brilliant.