Great Size, Adversaries, Favoured Abilities and Weariness

[bluejay]

Although in true "we had no chance against those trolls" form, the LM immediately gifts Thorin with a sword that has Superior Grievous (at least by the write up of Orcrist in the Rivendell supplement).

[Angelalex242]

Yeah, well, LM Tolkien was kind of a odd ball about how he assigned treasure.

As for me remembering the dwarves with weapons, I think I was remembering the movie, where they were indeed armed and hacking away at those trolls. And failing miserably.

[zedturtle]

Well...if 13 dwarves and 1 hobbit couldn't take 3 trolls, when they all have (except Bilbo) Great Axes with their really high injury ratings, what hope do your players have?

I'm genuinely not sure they have any weapons with them at all at that point.

It begs the question (asked many times) what the plan really was. "We're off to kill the dragon!" "Oh cool! Magic Axe? Spear? Magical Sword... don't tell me you're going to use a magic sword, that's strictly amateur hour, that is." (Thorium shuffles his feet a bit). "I have a harp."

[Glorelendil]

Well...if 13 dwarves and 1 hobbit couldn't take 3 trolls, when they all have (except Bilbo) Great Axes with their really high injury ratings, what hope do your players have?

I'm genuinely not sure they have any weapons with them at all at that point.

It begs the question (asked many times) what the plan really was. "We're off to kill the dragon!" "Oh cool! Magic Axe? Spear? Magical Sword... don't tell me you're going to use a magic sword, that's strictly amateur hour, that is." (Thorium shuffles his feet a bit). "I have a harp."

Thorin was a metagamer. He was planning to use Song skill somehow...

[Angelalex242]

No, no. Thorin was a lazy bastid.

"We're going to kill the dragon! By which we mean we're going to rile him up, get him to attack the humans, and see if any of them can kill him. Should work."

[Láthspell]

I am certainly a proponent of the philosophy that "there are alternatives to fighting."

If the members of the Company came up with a creative way to avoid or escape a fight, I would certainly allow them to attempt it. It could even turn what could have have been certain death into a harrowing tale of how they escaped.

Against the Snow Trolls, for example, what if the Company grabbed their fallen comrades, threw down their shields and used them to sled down the snow covered ravine to relative safety, perhaps out-racing an avalanche in the process. Play it right and their hair's breath escape is certain to be a memorable experience for all concerned.

That Hound of Mirkwood is awesome for harassing enemies and making them Weary right from the off.

One thing about Intimidate Foe is that it feels odd to try and intimidate a troll in any way. Not just because of their overwhelming power and size but also their stupidity and animal-like intelligence. Doing the same on a Great Orc feels far more natural.

I'm of the opinion that the Hound is paws-down the best Virtue out there, though there is room for debate on the matter.

In regards to intimidating Trolls, given that it is based off their attribute level, it is harder to do than the average Orc. Even the less intelligent varieties of Trolls are still going to have an instinct for self-preservation. A Cave Troll facing down a Dwarf shouting war-cries at the top of its lungs might think twice before engaging even though the Dwarf is a fraction of its size. Especially if said Dwarf does not reek of fear like every other creature the Cave Troll may have encountered up to this point.

A human can scare off a black bear, despite the bear weighing two to three times as much. (Quick caveat, that I would not try shouting at a Grizzly bear.) The point is, many living things tend to fear the unknown or unexpected, and if an adventurer responds to a roaring Troll by confidently roaring right back, the Troll might think twice.

Maybe when he was writing that chapter the Professor didn't understand how favoured skills benefit from attribute level.

That must be it. Though to be fair, the rules were still being play-tested at the time.

Well...if 13 dwarves and 1 hobbit couldn't take 3 trolls, when they all have (except Bilbo) Great Axes with their really high injury ratings, what hope do your players have?

I'm genuinely not sure they have any weapons with them at all at that point. The only one who puts up a fight is Thorin and he uses a flaming branch.

Not to mention that the Trolls ambushed the Dwarves one by one, except for Thorin who was warned by Bilbo that the Trolls were lying in wait. As for weapons, the only ones that receive any mention (aside from knives, sticks, and stones) are Glamdring, Orcrist, and Sting, all of which were found in the Troll-cave after the previous occupants took up permanent residence outside to provide superb nesting grounds for the local avian population.

[Stormcrow]

I'm amused by the "next time don't fight it" responses, in the absence of other information.

Collecting information is part of this thing called "tactics" that I mentioned before. So is "running away."

Really, it's just not the case that "if it has stats, we're supposed to fight it." Not even "the referee put it in front of us, so we're supposed to fight it." Unless the snow-trolls chase you down relentlessly or ambush you, fighting is only one option.

Let deadly dangers be deadly. Let a rush headlong into combat be given whatever consequences logically emerge from that choice. Let intelligent play be rewarded with survival.

"We had no way of knowing how tough they'd be!" Live and learn. That's what makes a role-playing game exciting.

[Glorelendil]

In any event, the fact remains that if combat with one of these beasts happens...whether or not it was due to player inexperience or foolishness...the odds of unlucky dice leading to TPK are actually rather high. Perhaps I computed it wrong, but I believe the odds of successfully wounding a Snow Troll with a long sword*, two-handed in Forward Stance, is about 1/20. Using Prepared Shots with a Great Bow is significantly worse than that.

Never mind when the sounds of combat draw another one. And then another...

*That is, using a long sword to wound a Snow Troll, not wounding a long-sword wielding Snow Troll.

[bluejay]

That sounds about right Glorelendil. How does that change if the snow troll is Weary?

[Glorelendil]

I'm amused by the "next time don't fight it" responses, in the absence of other information.

Collecting information is part of this thing called "tactics" that I mentioned before. So is "running away.".

Actually, I meant "absence of other information" in the sense of "assuming other players need lectures on how to play better" without knowing what actually happened in the game in question.