magic

[Robin Smallburrow]

Hawkwing,

You can access mine (which I warn you is a more comprehensive look at Magic) from the link below in my sig below. Good luck with whomever u choose!, Zedturtle's one is also good if you want a simple, small system.

Robin S.

[Er-Murazor]

The One Ring remains true to the original source material that Tolkein wrote by being a very low magic setting.

Except that Tolkien did not write of a Middle-Earth in which there are no magicians. And while Middle-Earth is certainly a place where magic is more subtle, I would argue that its certainly not a "low magic setting". There is magic everywhere just about in The Lord of the Rings. Tolkien described Beorn as "a bit of a magician". The Eldar went into battle in the Wars of Beleriand aided by "Wizardry". Men like Malbeth the Seer make predictions. Aragorn heals people the same as Elrond, Elladan and Elrohir. He even does what appears to be a song of power over the Morgul blade Frodo is stabbed with near Weathertop. The Dunadan made blades with "spells that were the ban of Mordor". Gandalf says he can remember a score of spells of opening in "all the languages of Men, Elves and Orcs for such purposes". Why, if only the Istari can use spells, does Gandalf say something like that?

[Stormcrow]

Why, if only the Istari can use spells, does Gandalf say something like that?

Just a note: a "spell" is literally something you say, not necessarily magical in itself, though it is usually a component of magic. The spells of opening Gandalf refers to are likely passwords that are used to open various magically shut portals. He is, after all, trying to "hack" the West Gate of Moria, where the password turns out to be mellon.

That said, I agree completely that Middle-earth has magic everywhere. It's not "low-magic"; magic is just what men call those arts to which they generally do not have access. For instance, when Finrod discovers the first men to cross into Beleriand, he sings a song and conjures visual images. He's not doing something fundamentally different than any man who sings. A man who sings can conjure images in the listeners' minds; when Finrod sings he conjures images beyond the listeners' minds. It's all just a matter of degree.

A man can, through an act of will, influence another person's actions. A wizard can, through an act of will, influence the actions of much more of the world around him, including inanimate objects. Gandalf can, for instance, will a door to remain shut, or will a pine cone to ignite, or will people not to wonder about his identity and origin. When does this become magic? When it crosses the point that men can't do it. And some men are more capable than others, and perform what lesser men call magic.

[Glorelendil]

I believe when people say "low magic" they are not comparing it to the real world but to other fantasy RPGs and fictional settings, like one that rhymes with Truncheons and Flagons, in which every adventuring group has at least one member who throws spectacular spells around on every combat round, mortal wounds are magically and instantly healed, and every character expects to collect and upgrade a number of overtly "magical" items during their career.

By that standard, both TOR and the source texts are clearly "low magic".

[Tantavalist]

That's pretty much what I meant when I said Low Magic- definitely not the same as No Magic. It's just not the same as High Magic settings, where a party containing one of the most powerful Wizards in the world failing to cross a mountain range in winter would be absurd. Why doesn't he teleport them all across to the other side, or just make the storm vanish?

Most D&D game worlds are High Magic. Exalted is High Magic. Middle-Earth most definitely is not High Magic.

[Stormcrow]

I understand the meaning; I just don't think it's the right terminology. Tolkien's magic is the magic of art, song, spirit, and will. D&D's magic is the magic of pulp and horror stories, psychic powers, and mass destruction, collected from a motley assortment of sources almost indiscriminately. Which one sounds High and which one sounds Low?

[Angelalex242]

Higher levels of magic is 'the one that wins in a fight.'

I believe there's essays on 'Gandalf was a 5th level wizard.' He's also a shape shifted celestial, but that's beside the point.

5th level wizard has nothing on 20th level wizard.

[Hermes Serpent]

I believe my old gaming buddy Lew Pulsipher wrote that article in the early days of D&D when the Tolkien connection was much more apparent. Dave Arneson had insisted that the game support Tolkien based gaming for his wargimng group while Gary Gygax wanted to focus on Sword and Sorcery style gaming as epitomised by the pulps -Howard's Conan, Clark Ashton Smith's work and Leiber's LANKHMAR and the planetary romances of Burroughs.

[Stormcrow]

'Gandalf was a 5th level wizard.'

I happen to disagree entirely with that essay. It misses huge amounts of magic, because anything that didn't match something in D&D Pulsipher ignored.

For instance, what about Gandalf extinguishing the balrog? How about his battle of wills with Denethor, and the subsequent lowering of his cloak of perception to Pippin? His ability to cast his mind hundreds of miles away to see and even talk to Frodo? Heck, what about the magic studs he gave to the Old Took?

[Glorelendil]

The essay wasn't actually claiming Gandalf was a minor character with small powers. If I remember correctly (I haven't read it since it was originally published) the point was that most things Gandalf did were not really displays of mighty magic, and that even low level magic-users can appear powerful. It was in response to complaints about d4 hit dice and Vancian Magic.

Or am I remembering it wrong?