When does Saruman become evil?

[Angelalex242]

Hmmmm. If we treat the Istari like PCs...

2759, Saruman gains his first permanent point of Shadow...
2851, he has 2 permanent points of Shadow
2953, 3 points of permanent Shadow
2990, 4 points of permanent Shadow
3000, 5th and final point of Shadow, suffering his final 'bout of madness' by gazing in the Palantir. Except, being Maia himself, he just becomes Sauron Jr. instead of going nuts like normal beings would.

Seems to match Tolwen's info.

[Tolwen]

Hmmmm. If we treat the Istari like PCs...

2759, Saruman gains his first permanent point of Shadow...
2851, he has 2 permanent points of Shadow
2953, 3 points of permanent Shadow
2990, 4 points of permanent Shadow
3000, 5th and final point of Shadow, suffering his final 'bout of madness' by gazing in the Palantir. Except, being Maia himself, he just becomes Sauron Jr. instead of going nuts like normal beings would.

Seems to match Tolwen's info.

That looks quite good IMO in game terms. Especially the generally decreasing amount of time in-between those gains. An important point to remember is that he is able to hide/mask his permanent Shadow completely from his fellow WC members - which is no small feat given their status and abilities.

Cheers
Tolwen

[Otaku-sempai]

For my post, I was citing Robert Foster's The Complete Guide to Middle-earth. I suspect that the event that broke the White Wizard was Sauron declaring himself openly in TA 2951. The return of the Enemy so soon after his apparent defeat at Dol Guldur might have sent Saruman into dispair.

I don't think so. At this time, Saruman was already quite "evil" (see below). His plans and actions are characterized by methodical planning and IMO it is quite unlikely that he deemed the flight of Sauron as a decisive defeat. A close look at Tolkien's information in the case, there is no indication that this event was even near a shock for Saruman.

I quite agree that Saruman's descent into evil began well before TA 2953. However, for many long years (I think that) he was still, in his mind, acting for the common good. Even his desire for control and command was probably first motivated by Saruman's conviction that he knew best and others were foolish not to heed him. It was not until he began to seek power for its own sake that his actions actually became malevolent.

I do wonder if the first seeds of Saruman's destruction were actually sown when Galadriel proposed that Gandalf head the White Council and when Cirdan entrusted the Grey Wizard with the Ring of Fire (assuming that Saruman was aware of that event).

[Angelalex242]

I don't think he was, because Saruman was thoroughly evil by the time he captured Gandalf, but didn't take the Red Ring of Fire from him. Gandalf pretty much kept that hidden from Saruman, though Elrond and Galadriel must've known he had it because they have Elven Rings too.

Equally notable that despite the fact Gandalf died fighting the Balrog, the Red Ring of Fire came back with him as Gandalf the White. Tough, those elven rings.

Anyways, if Cirdan gave the ring to Gandalf, he must've known there was a damn good reason for NOT giving to Saruman. Likewise, if Galadriel is suggesting he lead the council, she must've had a suspicion or two about Saruman's proclivities. (Unless you're Peter Jackson, who apparently ships GandalfxGaladriel.)

[Otaku-sempai]

I don't think he was, because Saruman was thoroughly evil by the time he captured Gandalf, but didn't take the Red Ring of Fire from him. Gandalf pretty much kept that hidden from Saruman, though Elrond and Galadriel must've known he had it because they have Elven Rings too.

You are probably right; although it is also possible that Saruman allowed Gandalf to retain Narya because he still hoped to win him over to his side. Certainly the bearers of the Elven Rings tried to keep them secret. On the other hand, Saruman is a hard individual to fool and he had his spies--human, animal and other.

[Tolwen]

I don't think he was, because Saruman was thoroughly evil by the time he captured Gandalf, but didn't take the Red Ring of Fire from him. Gandalf pretty much kept that hidden from Saruman, though Elrond and Galadriel must've known he had it because they have Elven Rings too.

Equally notable that despite the fact Gandalf died fighting the Balrog, the Red Ring of Fire came back with him as Gandalf the White. Tough, those elven rings.

Tolkiens notices that Saruman became aware of Círdan's gift and begrudged it early on. It is not stated when he discovered it, but from the wording it is not unreasonable to assume that it was relatively early, perhaps sometime in the second millenium of the Third Age.
That Saruman didn't take the Ring has IMO more to do with the circumstances. The only other example with some info we have where a Ring of Power was forcibly taken from its owner was the Last of the Seven. Thráin II was intensely tortured in Dol Guldur by Sauron who eventually wrestled the Ring from him. We don't know the time or direct circumstances from that, though what we know is that Rings of Power were not easily noticeable by other people (thus the movie version of the Hobbit is not very good in this respect) and there was quite a big power divide between the Dwarf king and Sauron, which made the process more easy.

OTOH, even though Saruman was superior in power to Gandalf, they were much closer in that respect compared to Sauron/Thráin II(and Gandalf of course had the support of the Ring itself) and it would have taken a considerable effort - with unsure outcome - to really force the Ring from Gandalf. Thus we can speculate with some degree of certainty that it was not that easy for Saruman to simply take the Ring against Gandalf's will. And the latter was imprisoned in Orthanc for only about 2.5 months while Saruman had many other important matters to attend to in his preparation for the war.

Cheers
Tolwen

[Angelalex242]

That's another interesting thing about the rings.

Why didn't Sauron just kill Thrain II and take his ring? Was he torturing him for the sadistic lulz? Or did he HAVE to do it that way because just killing him and looting the body would've damage or destroyed the Dwarf Ring?

Saruman probably didn't kill Gandalf because he simply couldn't, at least not without going all out Balrog style and risking himself in the process.

[Tolwen]

That's another interesting thing about the rings.

Why didn't Sauron just kill Thrain II and take his ring? Was he torturing him for the sadistic lulz? Or did he HAVE to do it that way because just killing him and looting the body would've damage or destroyed the Dwarf Ring?

Saruman probably didn't kill Gandalf because he simply couldn't, at least not without going all out Balrog style and risking himself in the process.

Perhaps Sauron was not only looking for the ring (even though that was of course the most important matter), but also for other information that might help him in his further plans. He probably asked about the strength and dispositions of Durin's House and any related intelligence useful for planning a war and assessing your enemy's capabilities. He was at last a valuable prisoner with - potentially - lots of useful information. I'm pretty sure that Sauron squeezed him out until he thought there's nothing more to learn from him, leaving a broken wreck to die in the dungeon. Given this, it was no small feat to withhold the info about the map and key, though Sauron might be unaware of these which helped a lot in not revealing it at some point (if Sauron was not specifically asking for it, the chance to hide it was probably much better).
There is also the related topic of how Thráin was actually able to hide two items (the map and the key) in the dungeons of Dol Guldur for 5 years. IMO the most likely interpretation would be to hide them somewhere in his cell, as he was surely thoroughly searched after capture and bbefore interrogations. Especially if we think about torture (rack etc.) you are likely to be lightly clad, making hiding something even more difficult. Overall, hiding that stuff for so long is a feat of enormous skill given the overall circumstances.

Cheers
Tolwen

[Matthew]

Lots of good and detailed information here for you already Tolwen.

If you have not already done so you should dig into the 'Unfinished Tales' by Tolkien (edited by Christopher).

There you will find chapters given over to:
The Istari,
The Palantiri,
The disaster of the Gladden Fields and the losing of the ring,
The Hunt for the Ring (including lots of detailed reference 'concerning Gandalf, Saruman and the Shire and Saruman's escalating deceit,
The quest for Erebor with reference to Thrain and the last Dwarven ring.

It's also an excellent read!

[Terisonen]

The how and why of Sauron grabbing the ring from Thrain is akin of Gollum and Bilbo riddle each other in the cavern of the King of the Goblin: that some rule in Middle earth cannot be broken, even by the most potent being. If the Ring of Thrain was a Gift, neither power in Middle earth can use him (not take him physically, that juste different) without Thrain relishing it willingly (more or less). That's why he was in Dol Guldur Dungeon for five years, before dying of neglect and broken will.