When does Saruman become evil?

[Tolwen]

The how and why of Sauron grabbing the ring from Thrain is akin of Gollum and Bilbo riddle each other in the cavern of the King of the Goblin: that some rule in Middle earth cannot be broken, even by the most potent being. If the Ring of Thrain was a Gift, neither power in Middle earth can use him (not take him physically, that juste different) without Thrain relishing it willingly (more or less). That's why he was in Dol Guldur Dungeon for five years, before dying of neglect and broken will.

I don't think that there is enough evidence for this. The three cases we know quite well about where a Ring of Power changed hands through force (and force alone) concerned the One: First Isildur cutting it from Sauron, then the Orcs killing Isildur and finally Sméagol killing Déagol for it. In all cases the former owner had not the slightest intention of giving it up willingly (even if forced).
And in all cases the ring "worked" perfectly ever after for the new owner.
The "freely giving it up" has IMO more to do with the former owner's peace of mind and avoiding a dreadful fate (for mannish/hobbitish wearers).

Cheers
Tolwen

[Tolwen]

Lots of good and detailed information here for you already Tolwen.

If you have not already done so you should dig into the 'Unfinished Tales' by Tolkien (edited by Christopher).

There you will find chapters given over to:
The Istari,
The Palantiri,
The disaster of the Gladden Fields and the losing of the ring,
The Hunt for the Ring (including lots of detailed reference 'concerning Gandalf, Saruman and the Shire and Saruman's escalating deceit,
The quest for Erebor with reference to Thrain and the last Dwarven ring.

It's also an excellent read!

Indeed - and let's not forget the HoMe (especially Vol. X to XII) which gives even more deeper insights. All of these have proven very useful for my various OH and OM articles over the past 15 years

Cheers
Tolwen

[Glorelendil]

Overall, hiding that stuff for so long is a feat of enormous skill given the overall circumstances.

Dwarves have a Vitue for that. /wink

[Angelalex242]

I'm pretty sure Sauron himself could overcome the broken spells virtue in a trice. There's nothing a mere Dwarf can do.

[Terisonen]

The how and why of Sauron grabbing the ring from Thrain is akin of Gollum and Bilbo riddle each other in the cavern of the King of the Goblin: that some rule in Middle earth cannot be broken, even by the most potent being. If the Ring of Thrain was a Gift, neither power in Middle earth can use him (not take him physically, that juste different) without Thrain relishing it willingly (more or less). That's why he was in Dol Guldur Dungeon for five years, before dying of neglect and broken will.

I don't think that there is enough evidence for this. The three cases we know quite well about where a Ring of Power changed hands through force (and force alone) concerned the One: First Isildur cutting it from Sauron, then the Orcs killing Isildur and finally Sméagol killing Déagol for it. In all cases the former owner had not the slightest intention of giving it up willingly (even if forced).
And in all cases the ring "worked" perfectly ever after for the new owner.
The "freely giving it up" has IMO more to do with the former owner's peace of mind and avoiding a dreadful fate (for mannish/hobbitish wearers).

Cheers
Tolwen

It can be arguable, for The One Ring have always be a treacherous item to use, when taken from Sauron unwillingly. Now it seem to me you're allright, because we know that the ring can be mastered by powerful being, like Galadriel, Gandalf, Elrond, but they won't use it. Saruman want it desperatly also. But this one is the master of all, and it have a will by itself.

May be Thrain was taken captive for further use, like a kind of ransom, or by cruelty by Sauron after all, left to rot with his precious item save his ring.

[Glorelendil]

The how and why of Sauron grabbing the ring from Thrain is akin of Gollum and Bilbo riddle each other in the cavern of the King of the Goblin: that some rule in Middle earth cannot be broken, even by the most potent being. If the Ring of Thrain was a Gift, neither power in Middle earth can use him (not take him physically, that juste different) without Thrain relishing it willingly (more or less). That's why he was in Dol Guldur Dungeon for five years, before dying of neglect and broken will.

I don't think that there is enough evidence for this. The three cases we know quite well about where a Ring of Power changed hands through force (and force alone) concerned the One: First Isildur cutting it from Sauron, then the Orcs killing Isildur and finally Sméagol killing Déagol for it. In all cases the former owner had not the slightest intention of giving it up willingly (even if forced).
And in all cases the ring "worked" perfectly ever after for the new owner.
The "freely giving it up" has IMO more to do with the former owner's peace of mind and avoiding a dreadful fate (for mannish/hobbitish wearers).

Cheers
Tolwen

You missed a rather important one.

[PST]

You missed a rather important one.

It's hard to make any conclusion about the X seconds that gollum had the ring after seizing it from Frodo.

[Angelalex242]

Pretty sure Gollum taking it from Frodo was Eru Illuvitar's contingency plan in case Frodo couldn't quite hack it. Which proved out to be a wise decision.

[Tolwen]

You missed a rather important one.

Yes, of course there's the case of Gollum v. Frodo as already mentioned. But as said, the possession lasted very briefly and unfortunately it does not contribute to the topic in question.

But apart from that you're right of course that this was another case of forced change in ownership of the One.

Cheers
Tolwen

[Tolwen]

Pretty sure Gollum taking it from Frodo was Eru Illuvitar's contingency plan in case Frodo couldn't quite hack it. Which proved out to be a wise decision.

If we follow Tolkien's thoughts on this in the Letters, Gollum seizing the Ring was an integral part of Eru's plan, as no one would have been able to willingly damage the Ring (i.e. it was inevitable that Frodo failed at the last moment). Therefore in the "Great Plan" Frodo's part was "only" to bring the Ring to the location where it could be destroyed. Therefore another factor was absolutely necessary to facilitate the destruction. And this factor was Gollum.

Cheers
Tolwen