When does Saruman become evil?

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PST
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When does Saruman become evil?

Post by PST » Sat Jan 24, 2015 10:42 pm

Otaku-sempai wrote: Saruman definitely goes bad before TA 3000. Probably no later than 2953 when he took Isengard for his own and fortified it. At that point he started gathering Orcs and Dunlendings, secretly sending them against Rohan and Fangorn. It was probably at this time that he began breeding his Half-orcs. He was doing far more than just spying on the Shire. Saruman's corruption took hold long before his mind was ensared by Sauron.
I can't find anything that says when he first began to gather orcs and Dunlendings to his cause.

According to the timeline we have:

2953: Last meeting of the White Council. They debate the Rings of Power. Saruman feigns that he has discovered that the One Ring has passed down Anduin to the Sea. Saruman withdraws to Isengard, which he takes as his own, and fortifies it. Being jealous and afraid of Gandalf he sets spies to watch all his movements; and notes his interest in the Shire. He soon begins to keep agents in Bree and the Southfarthing.

'Fortifies it' could mean just about anything, from raising the walls through to an army of orcs, but given Gandalf has no idea when he visits him, I think it's unlikely he'd had orcs hanging around for 60+ years beforehand.

Now, clearly he goes through a steady decline of morality between 2953 and 3000 when he is ensnared/corrupted by Sauron but I can't find anything in HoME, UT, The Sil or LotR that suggest a specific time when he first began to work with orcs. We can suppose that 2851 is when he began to think more of himself than his task (in persuading the White Council not to assault Dol Guldur) but is that the point of slipping to 'evil' and if so could he manage to keep it hidden so long.

Personally, I think there's a slip by slip from 2851, escalating after 2953 but it's not until he uses the palantir in 3000 that he's truly 'evil'. We don't have a suggestion that Rohan was suffering for 50+ years before The War of the Ring, for example, and it's in 3014 that Grima Wormtongue begins to poison Theoden's mind.

Angelalex242
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Re: When does Saruman become evil?

Post by Angelalex242 » Sat Jan 24, 2015 11:12 pm

Equally a point, what do you do about those metagamey players who say, "Saruman? I'm not listening to that guy, he's evil!"

"How do you know that, exactly?"

Barding:Woeful Foresight!
Dunedain: Foresight of their Kin!

...Saruman congratulates you for figuring his plans out, and then kills you with magic. Roll up new characters. :P

PST
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Re: When does Saruman become evil?

Post by PST » Sat Jan 24, 2015 11:15 pm

Angelalex242 wrote:Equally a point, what do you do about those metagamey players who say, "Saruman? I'm not listening to that guy, he's evil!"
Get better players?

I've not got that problem and wouldn't game with people who did metagame to that extent so i'm not sure how prevalent it is. Maybe reminding them that their characters don't know X/Y/Z. Have a chat with them before/after the game to go through why it's a problem if they take out of game knowledge into the game etc. I find talking things through with players, such as 'i'd rather no one metagames this campaign, anyone have a problem with that?' makes for better gaming.

Angelalex242
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Re: When does Saruman become evil?

Post by Angelalex242 » Sat Jan 24, 2015 11:19 pm

Get better players is advice that really only applies to online gaming. Face to Face, there's only so many people that live near you who are interested in gaming in the first place.

Hence my solution of 'Saruman congratulates you for figuring his plans out and kills you." :P

Láthspell
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Re: When does Saruman become evil?

Post by Láthspell » Sun Jan 25, 2015 12:03 am

This is a bit cruel, but you could make Saruman's fall to the Dark Side be directly the result of your characters treating him poorly. ;)

More seriously, there is a game book called A Spy in Isengard that is basically a choose your own adventure with simplified MERP rules. You take on the role of Saruman's apprentice during his descent into shadow. I don't recall if it gives a specific year, but it is before Gandalf is captured by Saruman. The premise is that you notice some odd behavior in you master and decide to alert the White Council (namely Galadriel and Celeborn). You then need to travel around Orthanc and collect evidence against Saruman without raising his suspicions or that of his other minions.

In any case, I would highly recommend it (and other Middle Earth Quest books), if you can find and old copy or pdf somewhere.

Angelalex242
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Re: When does Saruman become evil?

Post by Angelalex242 » Sun Jan 25, 2015 12:58 am

That works too. It's like having Anakin turn evil early due to your PC's interactions with him. Which might well change the galaxy for the worse, as many of the 'Hero with No Fear's' actions would then never occur.

Otaku-sempai
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Re: When does Saruman become evil?

Post by Otaku-sempai » Sun Jan 25, 2015 4:20 am

For my post, I was citing Robert Foster's The Complete Guide to Middle-earth. I suspect that the event that broke the White Wizard was Sauron declaring himself openly in TA 2951. The return of the Enemy so soon after his apparent defeat at Dol Guldur might have sent Saruman into dispair.
"Far, far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he."

Láthspell
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Re: When does Saruman become evil?

Post by Láthspell » Sun Jan 25, 2015 8:50 am

That seems like a reasonable supposition, Otaku-sempai.

He must have taken it pretty hard when that Ithil_Stone01 bloke he met over Palantíri chat turned out to have been the Dark Lord all along.

bluejay
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Re: When does Saruman become evil?

Post by bluejay » Sun Jan 25, 2015 10:29 am

Láthspell wrote:That seems like a reasonable supposition, Otaku-sempai.

He must have taken it pretty hard when that Ithil_Stone01 bloke he met over Palantíri chat turned out to have been the Dark Lord all along.
Hahahahaha!! There is a whole sketch in that statement waiting to be written.
James Semple, occasional composer of role playing music

Tolwen
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Re: When does Saruman become evil?

Post by Tolwen » Sun Jan 25, 2015 12:44 pm

Otaku-sempai wrote:For my post, I was citing Robert Foster's The Complete Guide to Middle-earth. I suspect that the event that broke the White Wizard was Sauron declaring himself openly in TA 2951. The return of the Enemy so soon after his apparent defeat at Dol Guldur might have sent Saruman into dispair.
I don't think so. At this time, Saruman was already quite "evil" (see below). His plans and actions are characterized by methodical planning and IMO it is quite unlikely that he deemed the flight of Sauron as a decisive defeat. A close look at Tolkien's information in the case, there is no indication that this event was even near a shock for Saruman.

The Fall of Saruman was - as in similar cases in Middle-earth - a gradual rather than a sudden process. "Becoming evil" is not a sudden event that turns you from good & white to evil & black in a matter of seconds. Even the most "evil" entities like Melkor and Sauron took some time to in that development. Thus we also we have to view Saruman's case in this way. It is like progressing a 'Shade of Grey' scale from white throughout increasingly darker greys to finally black (or very dark grey).
Saruman's development from a respected member of the Wise and - especially - genuine and honest enemy of the Shadow to one of its agents took about 250 years. Depending on the time you are interested in, he is then more or less strongly 'grey-shaded'

Saruman was at first also travelling far and wide (especially the East). We have no precise dates for this, but it seems that he returned about the same as Sauron after Watchful Peace, since he became Chief of the White Council that was formed in TA 2463 (see below). He may have travelled again before taking his seat in Isengard, though that cannot be determined by the sources without doubt. The later statements about this studies seem to suggest a prolonged stay in the Northwest (especially Gondor) after his return from the East (c. TA 2460) and before the beginning of his stay in Isengard (TA 2759).
J.R.R. Tolkien wrote: [...] in the tongue of Northern Men Saruman; but that was after he returned from his many journeys and came into the realm of Gondor and there abode.
—UT.The Istari
The relevant quotes in the later Third Age that concern Saruman follow below:
J.R.R. Tolkien wrote: 2463 The White Council is formed [and Saruman elected as its Chief]. About this time Déagol the Stoor finds the One Ring, and is murdered by Sméagol. Saruman begins his study of the Rings of Power and their uses and history [this is from the more complete Tale of Years in the HoMe12]
2759 Saruman takes up his abode in Isengard.
2850 Gandalf again enters Dol Guldur, and discovers that its master is indeed Sauron. who is gathering all the Rings and seeking for news of the One, and of Isildur's Heir.
2851 The White Council meets. Gandalf urges an attack on Dol Guldur. Saruman overrules him.6 Saruman begins to search near the Gladden Fields.
6 It afterwards became clear that Saruman had then begun to desire to possess the One Ring himself, and he hoped that it might reveal itself, seeking its master, if Sauron were let be for a time.
2939 Saruman discovers that Sauron's servants are searching the Anduin near Gladden Fields, and that Sauron therefore has learned of Isildur's end. He is alarmed, but says nothing to the Council.
2941 The White Council meets; Saruman agrees to an attack on Dol Guldur, since he now wishes to prevent Sauron from searching the River. Sauron having made his plans abandons Dol Guldur.
2953 Last meeting of the White Council. They debate the Rings. Saruman feigns that he has discovered that the One Ring has passed down Anduin to the Sea. Saruman withdraws to Isengard, which he takes as his own, and fortifies it. Being jealous and afraid of Gandalf he sets spies to watch all his movements; and notes his interest in the Shire. He soon begins to keep agents in Bree and the Southfarthing.
c. 3000 The shadow of Mordor lengthens. Saruman dares to use the palantír of Orthanc, but becomes ensnared by Sauron, who has the Ithil Stone. He becomes a traitor to the Council.
—LotR.Appendix B
J.R.R. Tolkien wrote: It was at the crowning of Fréaláf [TA 2759] that Saruman appeared, bringing gifts, and speaking great praise of the valour of the Rohirrim. All thought him a welcome guest. Soon after he took up his abode in Isengard. For this, Beren, Steward of Gondor, gave him leave, for Gondor still claimed Isengard as a fortress of its realm, and not part of Rohan. Beren also gave into Saruman's keeping the keys of Orthanc. That tower no enemy had been able to harm or to enter.
In this way Saruman began to behave as a lord of Men; for at first he held Isengard as a lieutenant of the Steward and warden of the tower. But Fréaláf was as glad as Beren to have this so, and to know that Isengard was in the hands of a strong friend. A friend he long seemed, and maybe in the beginning he was one in truth. Though afterwards there was little doubt in men's minds that Saruman went to Isengard in hope to find the Stone [=palantír] still there, and with the purpose of building up a power of his own. Certainly after the last White Council (2953) his designs towards Rohan, though he hid them, were evil. He then took Isengard for his own and began to make it a place of guarded strength and fear, as though to rival the Barad-dûr. His friends and servants he drew then from all who hated Gondor and Rohan, whether Men or other creatures more evil.
[...]
It was soon after Thengel's return [to Rohan - in TA 2953] that Saruman declared himself Lord of Isengard and began to give trouble to Rohan, encroaching on its borders and supporting its enemies.
—LotR.Appendix A
This passage is quite highlighting, as it allows a glimpse on Saruman's motives towards his Fall. He goes to Isengard still as a friend, even though he already behaves masterful (i.e. desiring to be a lord) as highlighted before. This was the first step towards Evil, as he was forbidden to do this:
J.R.R. Tolkien wrote: And this [the indirect mission of the Istari] the Valar did, desiring to amend the errors of old, especially that they had attempted to guard and seclude the Eldar by their own might and glory fully revealed; whereas now their emissaries were forbidden to reveal themselves in forms of majesty, or to seek to rule the wills of Men and Elves by open display of power, but coming in shapes weak and humble were bidden to advise and persuade Men and Elves to good, and to seek to unite in love and understanding all those whom Sauron, should he come again, would endeavour to dominate and corrupt.
—UT.The Istari
Thus both highlighted parts (in bold) show that Saruman already began to deviate from the orders of his mission by becoming an influential "political player" in the region by the time of taking his seat in Isengard. From that time onward, he gradually declined further in wisdom by desiring ever more power and eventually the One.
TA 2851 is an important date as here Gandalf informs the White Council of his discoveries in Dol Guldur and urges for an attack on it. The fact that Saruman dissuades this and plays with fire by hoping that Sauron's increased activity might reveal the One (and then he - Saruman - might seize if he acted quickly) shows that at this time Saruman was already corrupt enough to withhold his motives (the One might show himself). This might still be seen as somewhat 'good' by trying to capture the Ring before Sauron and then - in the best case - confer with the Council what to do with it. It is more likely though, that he had already begun to desire it for his own purposes of power (see his desire as a 'master of Men' above) and stray away even more from his mission. Withholding his motives from the Council is IMO a strong indicator for this second view. So by the mid-29th century, Saruman was already corrupt enough to desire the One Ring to further his own plans for power.
The fall of Saruman would be completed by around TA 3000 as already quoted above, when he dared to use the palantír of Orthanc and became ensnared by Sauron and finally became a real Enemy (though hidden still). This date is further reinforced by the following passage which refers to the earliest possible date for Saruman's orc-breeding programme. This coincides quite well with the use of the palantír, which makes the years around TA 3000 the best candidate for Saruman completing his decline into evilness.
J.R.R. Tolkien wrote: 7 The Council seems to have been unaware, since for many years Isengard had been closely guarded, of what went on within its [Isengard's] Ring. The use, and possibly special breeding, of Orcs was kept secret, and
cannot have begun much before 2990 at earliest. The Orc-troops seem never to have been used beyond the territory of Isengard before the attack on Rohan. Had the Council known of this they would, of course, at once have realized that Saruman had become evil. [Author's note.]
—UT.The palantíri (Note 7)
Now, the question when Saruman became evil depends to a good degree of what you define as "evil". If you are very strict, he was already "evil" in the mid-28th century, as he had then begun to violate his orders of not trying to become a master of men. The mid-29th century is an important marker, as we can surmise with a good degree of certainty that Saruman already was trying to seize the One for himself around that time. The next precise information is TA 2953, when Saruman began to become an unfriendly neighbour to Rohan. At the latest, at around TA 3000 he is "completely" evil and a servant of the Enemy/Shadow (although he is still double-crossing Sauron!).
And in between these two points, Saruman is in almost every shade of grey throughout his decline.

Cheers
Tolwen
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