Bad players

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PST
Posts: 41
Joined: Wed Aug 20, 2014 11:02 am

Re: Bad players

Post by PST » Sat Jan 31, 2015 10:56 am

Fundamentally the answer to all of the problems is:

Talk to your players.

A lot (but by no means all) problems in the social dynamics/expectations and playstyle conflicts in a game can be solved by just chatting things out.

Before I run any game I chat things through with my players on what the game is, what my expectations of it are, what they're looking for etc. This can be at the 'What system/genre do people want to do next?' stage, or just at the outset. So with my previous Night's Black Agents campaign we had a lot of talk about style and feel as it was very much a shades of grey campaign with blurred lines on morality, hard decisions to be made etc.

Breaking them down one by one:

1) Does the player have a rules summary easily to hand? Flash cards/index cards etc. on their traits and abilities. The elf in my game has her elf-light effects written down but will often still forget to use it because it's not something used 'all the time', wheras she always has a 'do I spend hope to cause a piercing blow' choice going on whenever she shoots something significant.

While not for every campaign, i'll run a wiki for the game, print maps, write up handouts, do cards with images and information on every npc etc. I do these because I find that the easier it is for the players to have the information their characters have, the more fun the game is. They're playing for 4 hours, one night a week. their characters have spent 5-6 years together while the players have been doing it for 8 months etc.

Likewise, as others have said, you could encourage the other players to give help, have discussions ooc on the game, tactics etc.

In the specific example you cited with the GK, that's a huge amount of pressure at that point, everyone else is out of the fight, the player is stuck not knowing what to do (see his 'Player: "Well, what else could I do? I have no choice." '. At this point i'd encourage the player to talk through his options rather than just use the standard 'what do you do'.

Ultimately this is a playstyle issue which different groups have very different takes on. Some people like the adversarial campaign of players vs GM, others don't. Again that goes back to talking to your players.

2) Talk it through with the player.

3) Talk it through with the player. Not everyone puts themselves into their character, some people approach games as a problem to be solved to 'win' etc. How much the player is enjoying your game , and how much his playstyle is affecting your enjoyment of running the game is the issue.
Angelalex242 wrote:On 1: Detrimental to the party is easily answered with Shadow Points. Drive him insane with a few bouts of madness till he gets it through his head to stop doing that.
I really feel that this is terrible advice. A player not remembering the rules or everything their character can do is absolutely no reason to drive the character insane. This is the worst sort of adversarial GMing that completely ignores the whole 'fun' part of gaming and makes it instead about forcing the player to do what the GM wants by punishing their character. I'd immediately leave any game run by someone with this sort of approach to gaming.

Robin Smallburrow
Posts: 564
Joined: Mon May 13, 2013 10:35 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Bad players

Post by Robin Smallburrow » Sat Jan 31, 2015 11:59 am

Michebugio

After reading your problem and especially the example you gave, it made me think of a player we used to play with a lot, we referred to him as 'Oh that's Jonathan off in his own world again'.

In fact Problem 1 is actually Problem 3 in reverse! By which I mean that the Player has trouble visualising the situation and what choices/options are available to his/her character for a particular situation. Where a meta-gamer (Problem 3) is constantly bringing the game back to mechanics, numbers etc. and forgetting to ROLEPLAY, the type of Problem player in Problem 1 has the opposite problem: their character sheet often seems a bewildering array of meaningless numbers, statistics etc. to them.

Problem 1 is also common for newbie roleplayers who are not familiar with standard RPG conventions.

Remember the First Law of Game Mastery (taken from The Game Master: A Guide which you should get hold of)

Communicate with the players!! This means that the other players are not there just to observe your creation, but they are actors as well, meant to interpret and contribute to the story. Your job as LM is to give them the tools they require so they can 'do justice' to the character they have designed.

Even experienced players like myself will forget 'stuff' on our character sheets from time to time, so we need the GM and other players to help us out. For TOR which above all is meant to be a Fellowship game, perhaps suggest to the other players that they can help this player out from time to time??

Robin S.
To access all my links for my TOR Resources - please click on this link >> http://bit.ly/1gjXkCo

Robin Smallburrow
Posts: 564
Joined: Mon May 13, 2013 10:35 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Bad players

Post by Robin Smallburrow » Sat Jan 31, 2015 12:02 pm

Michebugio

After reading your problem and especially the example you gave, it made me think of a player we used to play with a lot, we referred to him as 'Oh that's Jonathan off in his own world again'.

In fact Problem 1 is actually Problem 3 in reverse! By which I mean that the Player has trouble visualising the situation and what choices/options are available to his/her character for a particular situation. Where a meta-gamer (Problem 3) is constantly bringing the game back to mechanics, numbers etc. and forgetting to ROLEPLAY, the type of Problem player in Problem 1 has the opposite problem: their character sheet often seems a bewildering array of meaningless numbers, statistics etc. to them.

Problem 1 is also common for newbie roleplayers who are not familiar with standard RPG conventions.

Remember the First Law of Game Mastery (taken from The Game Master: A Guide which you should get hold of)

Communicate with the players!! This means that the other players are not there just to observe your creation, but they are actors as well, meant to interpret and contribute to the story. Your job as LM is to give them the tools they require so they can 'do justice' to the character they have designed.

Even experienced players like myself will forget 'stuff' on our character sheets from time to time, so we need the GM and other players to help us out. For TOR which above all is meant to be a Fellowship game, perhaps suggest to the other players that they can help this player out from time to time??

Robin S.
To access all my links for my TOR Resources - please click on this link >> http://bit.ly/1gjXkCo

Michebugio
Posts: 431
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2014 8:55 pm

Re: Bad players

Post by Michebugio » Sat Jan 31, 2015 3:43 pm

I like a lot your comments, and ultimately they will prove very helpful.

By the way, it will be just a matter of talking. My players are actually quite experienced, we've been playing together for 8 months all the way through Tales from the Wilderland and now we are at the last adventure... before we start Darkening of Mirkwood, of course ;)

As a Loremaster, I take things easy, and "save" my players as much as I can, without making them notice that. I don't reward "beating the game" in itself, I reward contributions to make the story more interesting: interesting choices, interesting characters, all this stuff makes the game more entertaining than being simply a more complex tabletop game.

One thing that I absolutely require from my players, though, is to love their characters. You should love how he learns and grows in his capabilities, you should love what he can do, and enjoy it as much as possible, building him both in terms of numbers and moral complexity. I think that this what roleplaying is about. Players who don't know or care about this are, at best, simply hanging out with you to enjoy a good evening without really caring about what is going on there; at worst, they are playing the wrong game and should be doing something else, more fitting to their idea of fun.

What I'm saying is that I don't think it's a matter of experience, and not even of game styles: as a Loremaster, I've seen unexperienced players doing great and having a lot of fun, and players who have been playing a lot performing very poorly in terms of contribution to the game. And I've seen players with a lot of freedom in terms of game style and choices still not having fun, and players with a strict code of behaviour enjoying the game much more. The alchemy of a good game should be in equal parts: 33% Loremaster's talent, 33% good story and good rule system, and 33% good players...

... and 1% of a good beer on the table, just to sum up to 100% :mrgreen:

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