Balancing enemies

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Majestic
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Re: Balancing enemies

Post by Majestic » Tue Feb 03, 2015 5:07 pm

Valarian wrote:
"This is foe beyond any of you .... Run!"
Sometimes, the decision of the PCs should be to run away if they feel they can't defeat the enemy. As a GM, the story may sometimes dictate an overwhelming enemy, either through numbers or through power. Running should always remain an option, if one that means an extended set of Travel, Athletics and Awareness rolls required to escape.
I very much agree. Not that long ago my gaming group discussed this very thing, and the conversation turned to how many RPGs don't encourage this. The thought is "If the GM put this encounter in front of us, it must be doable!" or "This foe can clearly be taken down, we just have to figure out how!".

In our TOR game (warning: SPOILERS follow), my players nearly decided to fight to the death in the dreamlike encounter from "Those Who Tarry No Longer". For those not familiar, the players more or less know that they're in the equivalent of a dream, and are captives in Dol Gulder. My PCs orchestrated an ambush of their guards and started to flee. Many created a distraction while two of them bolted down a hall. They ran face-to-face with a whole bunch of Orcs and a Troll! The pair retreated and joined the others, and they decided to go down fighting. I pulled a few players away (one Elf with a strong connection to Irime, and two more with Shadow-lore) and straight-out told them that they felt that "going down fighting" was not a wise course of action; that doing so fed right into what the Enemy wanted them to do (i.e., there was a "real" battle going on outside their dreamworld, and dying in the dream world would not allow them to be there to help in the actual struggle against their Adversary, the GK). I then left it up to the players to decide, and those few that I'd informed (the ones I'd taken out of the room and explained the larger picture to) were able to persuade the others to stand down and not fight (an almost impossible task with the Dwarf with the 'Lesson in Revenge' background).

In our most recent session (just a few nights ago), we played "A Darkness in the Marshes", and the group was being chased by a (literal) Orc army. That same Dwarf was wounded and very weak (he'd nearly fallen to his death, losing 20 Endurance). The players probably realized that fighting an entire army was suicide, and were trying to flee. The Dwarf decided to go out heroically, and tried to turn and run back at the pursuers; he would have done it if not for the other PCs (who refused to abandon him, and one of them called in a favor from the Eagles). Still, everyone seemed aware that to engage that many enemies would be certain death.

I like it when it's not always balanced, though I understand the general desire to match foes that provide a challenge. I've run game systems that use both methods, and there's something to be said for each. Right now I'm really appreciating a more "open sandbox" feel to my games (both The One Ring and D6 Star Wars) where the players have to carefully gauge which oppenents they should fight, and which ones they should not.
Tale of Years for a second, lower-level group (in the same campaign).

Majestic
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Re: Balancing enemies

Post by Majestic » Tue Feb 03, 2015 5:08 pm

Fridokind Wargaug wrote:
Valarian wrote:
"This is foe beyond any of you .... Run!"
Sometimes, the decision of the PCs should be to run away if they feel they can't defeat the enemy. As a GM, the story may sometimes dictate an overwhelming enemy, either through numbers or through power. Running should always remain an option, if one that means an extended set of Travel, Athletics and Awareness rolls required to escape.
A general question to running away. Let's say your group fights an enemy that is beyond their strength. One is already down. Another tries to flee the battle. Would you give him shadow points for leaving behind his comrades?
It really depends. Probably not, especially if that character's intent was to come back later to rescue his fallen teammates. Isn't that exactly what Bilbo did throughout The Hobbit?
Tale of Years for a second, lower-level group (in the same campaign).

Stormcrow
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Re: Balancing enemies

Post by Stormcrow » Tue Feb 03, 2015 7:32 pm

Fridokind Wargaug wrote:Would you give him shadow points for leaving behind his comrades?
I would consider this a source of anguish, "dreadful experience," which calls for a Corruption test, the failure of which brings 1 Shadow point.

Majestic
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Re: Balancing enemies

Post by Majestic » Tue Feb 03, 2015 8:58 pm

Stormcrow's response makes sense, and caused me to actually look at the rules (which I would have done had it come up in my game).

After doing that, I would go with this being a 'grievous occurance', which means the hero gains 1 Shadow point only if they fail a Corruption test AND roll an Eye of Sauron.

I could also see it being a 'dreadful experience' in some cases, which would simply be 1 Shadow point.
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Stormcrow
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Re: Balancing enemies

Post by Stormcrow » Tue Feb 03, 2015 9:03 pm

I went with "dreadful" rather than "grievous" because the latter seems from the examples to represent grief from accidents or tragedies. A hero who flees and leaves behind a comrade has the personal guilt of a decision he had to make. He may not have had a choice, but he had to make a decision nonetheless, and this affects people.

Majestic
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Re: Balancing enemies

Post by Majestic » Tue Feb 03, 2015 9:07 pm

Yeah, I could see it being that. Either one fits, IME, based on the circumstances. In fact, the more I think about it, the more I lean towards that harsher option.

Note that - if we did go with 'dreadful' - the normal consequences are simply 1 Shadow point awarded (no Corruption roll).
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Valarian
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Re: Balancing enemies

Post by Valarian » Tue Feb 03, 2015 10:47 pm

Fridokind Wargaug wrote:
Valarian wrote:
"This is foe beyond any of you .... Run!"
Sometimes, the decision of the PCs should be to run away if they feel they can't defeat the enemy. As a GM, the story may sometimes dictate an overwhelming enemy, either through numbers or through power. Running should always remain an option, if one that means an extended set of Travel, Athletics and Awareness rolls required to escape.
A general question to running away. Let's say your group fights an enemy that is beyond their strength. One is already down. Another tries to flee the battle. Would you give him shadow points for leaving behind his comrades?
Yes. They should pick up their fallen comrade and escape with him. If they do run away without their comrade, have the comrade captured rather than killed. This gives the other characters a chance to redeem themselves with a rescue.
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Falenthal
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Re: Balancing enemies

Post by Falenthal » Tue Feb 03, 2015 11:03 pm

Fridokind Wargaug wrote: Translation is done. Here you go!
https://www.dropbox.com/s/7e7q0oqg2eazl ... s.pdf?dl=0
Danke schön, Fridokind! :D

After just half a day off this forum, the thread converted to something else entirely... :roll:

Fridokind Wargaug
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Re: Balancing enemies

Post by Fridokind Wargaug » Tue Feb 03, 2015 11:14 pm

De nada. I hope you can use it :-)

Stormcrow
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Re: Balancing enemies

Post by Stormcrow » Wed Feb 04, 2015 1:45 am

Majestic wrote:Note that - if we did go with 'dreadful' - the normal consequences are simply 1 Shadow point awarded (no Corruption roll).
All sources of anguish require a Corruption test.

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