Balancing enemies

[Falenthal]

I'm working on a house-system to handle battles (which I plan to translate to english in the near future and post here for comments). One of its aspects is a "Threat level" which gives a hint at what kind of adversaries the heroes will be fighting. But I find it difficult to balance the level between single creatures (trolls and such) and groups.

Let me give an example:
A Hill-troll Chieftain has an Attribute level of 8.
Let's say we have a group of 4 heroes. If I want to give each one of them a foe which, for the group, is more or less as menacing as the Hill-troll Chieftain, how do I calculate that?
If I divide the Attribute leve of 8 between the 4 heroes, it results in a foe with Attribute level 2 for each one.
Obviously, one Snaga Tracker for every hero is not near as menacing to the group as a single Hill-troll Chieftain.

It would be nice to have some simple formula to calculate that, as for example:
"If the Threat level is 8, you can engage the companions with 1 level 8 foe, or 2 level 5 foes, or 4 level 3 foes."

Something like "before dividing, add to the Threat level the number by which you divide". So, if the Threat level is 8 and you want 4 foes, you'll have to add first 8+4 and then divide 12/4 = 3. So 4 Orc Soldiers (Attribute 3) should be equal as 1 Hill-troll Chieftain (which I think is not, btw.)

Any ideas? Maybe using the Endurance as a way of measuring the menace instead of the Attribute level?

[zedturtle]

I have tried to tackle this before.

But I was never satisfied with my system, either.

[Fridokind Wargaug]

I have learned in a seminar about gamification that to keep people (whether they are your customers or your RPG-players) satisfied and interesting in cosuming/fighting more you need a system that awards deeds more than time. However, to keep them even more motivated, the award for the deed should not stay the same all time, but should fluctuate, so that a "jack pot" is possible. The best example is a slot machine.

So I have made up a system that gives players mini-XP for killed adversaries, so that on average you have to kill 10 uruks to get a normal experience point. However, the amount of mini-XP is alternated by an dice roll, so that there is the chance for a jack pot. (Yes I know, this system takes up a lot calculating and dice rolling and whatsoever, but my players like it, so I'll stick to it )

Anyways, I have calculated the amount of mini-XP for each adversary based on following formula:

XP= [Attribute level] x ([Endurance] x [whether they have great size (2 if yes, 1 if no)] + [hate] + [parry] + [number of armour dice] + [number of dice for primary weapon]) x 10 x modifier. The modifier includes how rare the monster is, whether it is a boss adversary (like the gibbet king) and how many special abilities they have.

If you're interested in this list, I could translate it for you (I write my stuff in German) and post it online. You could base your calculation on those numbers. In your example a hill-troll-chief would make 7 Uruks.

[Falenthal]

I have learned in a seminar about gamification that to keep people (whether they are your customers or your RPG-players) satisfied and interesting in cosuming/fighting more you need a system that awards deeds more than time. However, to keep them even more motivated, the award for the deed should not stay the same all time, but should fluctuate, so that a "jack pot" is possible. The best example is a slot machine.

So I have made up a system that gives players mini-XP for killed adversaries, so that on average you have to kill 10 uruks to get a normal experience point. However, the amount of mini-XP is alternated by an dice roll, so that there is the chance for a jack pot. (Yes I know, this system takes up a lot calculating and dice rolling and whatsoever, but my players like it, so I'll stick to it )

Anyways, I have calculated the amount of mini-XP for each adversary based on following formula:

XP= [Attribute level] x ([Endurance] x [whether they have great size (2 if yes, 1 if no)] + [hate] + [parry] + [number of armour dice] + [number of dice for primary weapon]) x 10 x modifier. The modifier includes how rare the monster is, whether it is a boss adversary (like the gibbet king) and how many special abilities they have.

If you're interested in this list, I could translate it for you (I write my stuff in German) and post it online. You could base your calculation on those numbers. In your example a hill-troll-chief would make 7 Uruks.

Yes, please! Can I have it in english?
Otherwise, I also can speak some German, so maybe I'll be able to understand it if you link your current work here.

[poosticks7]

I started Role playing with the old Warhammer Roleplay that didn't have anything resembling Challenge Levels or such. It was up to the GM to eyeball what was acceptable to put your PCs up against.

Same with D6 star wars - there was no formula or code. (There were several other games that I played won't bore you with the details).

Then I got into 3rd Edition D&D and later 4th Edition and Star Wars Saga - they all had challenge levels and encounter levels and the like and I sorta got used to it in time - gave you a handy way to track suitable opponents.

But then I got into The One RIng which was a return to the old way for me... and I must admit I missed it - I'd gotten so used to matching foes against levels and such my games had become tired and predictable. Suddenly I had to eye ball combats again - and the games became fresh and interesting again (Of course it helps that The One Ring was such a great game).

The responsibility was back with the players to decide what they could handle - not some fake Computer Game like challenge level controlling things in the background,* the players could decide to take on a troll or retreat or avoid a tangle with a bunch of heavily armed Uruks as the story and drives of the characters dictated.

In short don't be too quick to look for a formula folks would be my advice.


* I occasional put in a cakewalk encounter or a 'totally don't mess with this thing' encounter.

[Indur Dawndeath]

It is a complex task. My idea is to calculate like this:
((Attribute x 2 if favourite weapon skill) + Endurance/10 + Hate) x 2 if Great Size or x 4 if Great size and favourite armour of 3d+

These numbers can be tweeked by simulating combat with Glorendils sim.
The players parry, injury capability and other factors are also very important when calculating the difficulty of the encounter.

I.e. to defeat a snow troll you would need 500 Hobbits armed with short swords, but maybe only 5 Beornings armed with Great axes. Where as 5 Hobbits could easily take down a Hill troll.

Cheers

[Stormcrow]

don't be too quick to look for a formula

Agreed. Learn the capabilities of the adversaries so that you can estimate at a glance what it will take to defeat it and how easily it will defeat the heroes. The quirky dice of The One Ring can make this a tricky proposition. Reference table 2.5 on the Loremaster's Screen ("Special Abilities of Adversaries") because special abilities have an enormous effect on a battle.

The best balancing tool is experience. Once you've watched the players struggle against a great orc, you'll realize just how its various statistics come into play.

I occasional put in a cakewalk encounter or a 'totally don't mess with this thing' encounter.

Absolutely essential for a satisfying game. If you never have to judge when to run away, there is little risk and thus little excitement. And "cakewalks" slow down the party and make them waste resources; the judging of which is another interesting aspect of a game.

[Valarian]

"This is foe beyond any of you .... Run!"

Sometimes, the decision of the PCs should be to run away if they feel they can't defeat the enemy. As a GM, the story may sometimes dictate an overwhelming enemy, either through numbers or through power. Running should always remain an option, if one that means an extended set of Travel, Athletics and Awareness rolls required to escape.

[Fridokind Wargaug]

I have learned in a seminar about gamification that to keep people (whether they are your customers or your RPG-players) satisfied and interesting in cosuming/fighting more you need a system that awards deeds more than time. However, to keep them even more motivated, the award for the deed should not stay the same all time, but should fluctuate, so that a "jack pot" is possible. The best example is a slot machine.

So I have made up a system that gives players mini-XP for killed adversaries, so that on average you have to kill 10 uruks to get a normal experience point. However, the amount of mini-XP is alternated by an dice roll, so that there is the chance for a jack pot. (Yes I know, this system takes up a lot calculating and dice rolling and whatsoever, but my players like it, so I'll stick to it )

Anyways, I have calculated the amount of mini-XP for each adversary based on following formula:

XP= [Attribute level] x ([Endurance] x [whether they have great size (2 if yes, 1 if no)] + [hate] + [parry] + [number of armour dice] + [number of dice for primary weapon]) x 10 x modifier. The modifier includes how rare the monster is, whether it is a boss adversary (like the gibbet king) and how many special abilities they have.

If you're interested in this list, I could translate it for you (I write my stuff in German) and post it online. You could base your calculation on those numbers. In your example a hill-troll-chief would make 7 Uruks.

Yes, please! Can I have it in english?
Otherwise, I also can speak some German, so maybe I'll be able to understand it if you link your current work here.

Translation is done. Here you go!
https://www.dropbox.com/s/7e7q0oqg2eazl ... s.pdf?dl=0

[Fridokind Wargaug]

"This is foe beyond any of you .... Run!"

Sometimes, the decision of the PCs should be to run away if they feel they can't defeat the enemy. As a GM, the story may sometimes dictate an overwhelming enemy, either through numbers or through power. Running should always remain an option, if one that means an extended set of Travel, Athletics and Awareness rolls required to escape.

A general question to running away. Let's say your group fights an enemy that is beyond their strength. One is already down. Another tries to flee the battle. Would you give him shadow points for leaving behind his comrades?