Captives, Shadow Points, and You

[Glorelendil]

A recurring "problem" I encounter in RPGs is the following scenario: you fight the bad guys, but you keep one alive for questioning. You intimidate/persuade him into giving you information...and then what? If you let him go you risk all kinds of grief down the road. But killing him...even in games without shadow points I don't like that option.

In one of Zed's PbP games another player came up with a great solution: one of the characters challenges the captive to single combat. If he wins he can go free.

This is my new favorite solution to the Captive Orc Problem.

[zedturtle]

A recurring "problem" I encounter in RPGs is the following scenario: you fight the bad guys, but you keep one alive for questioning. You intimidate/persuade him into giving you information...and then what? If you let him go you risk all kinds of grief down the road. But killing him...even in games without shadow points I don't like that option.

In one of Zed's PbP games another player came up with a great solution: one of the characters challenges the captive to single combat. If he wins he can go free.

This is my new favorite solution to the Captive Orc Problem.

And he would won too! (If your character had been weaponless and with one arm tied behind his back).

I did like it... I think the only viable (non-Evil) options are to release him (i.e. it doesn't matter the orc would not have shown you mercy, you must show mercy because your are Good) or otherwise give him some sort of shot at redemption. By allowing Ufthak to fight you, he was able to show you his quality. (Of being a braggart and a coward.)

[Angelalex242]

Ya know...

Does Tolkien ever actually write about taking an orc prisoner? I don't think it's ever happened.

[zedturtle]

Ya know...

Does Tolkien ever actually write about taking an orc prisoner? I don't think it's ever happened.

From Morgoth's Ring:

But even before this wickedness of Morgoth was suspected the Wise in the Elder Days taught always that Orcs were not 'made' by Morgoth, and therefore were not in their origin evil. They might have become irredeemable (at least by Elves and Men), but they remained within the Law. That is, that though of necessity, being the fingers of the hand of Morgoth, they must be fought with utmost severity, they must not be dealt with in their own terms of cruelty and treachery. Captives must not be tormented, not even to discover information for the defence of the homes of Elves and Men. If any Orcs surrendered and asked for mercy, they must be granted it, even at a cost. This was the teaching of the Wise, though in the horror of the War it was not always heeded.

So, yes it happened. Or at least was something worth consideration.

[Angelalex242]

...yep, that sounds like Tolkien's idea of an admittedly one sided Geneva Convention.

Though he did mention it wasn't always followed, it does imply Shadow Points get assigned if you torture orcs or fail to grant mercy.

[Elmoth]

Considering the elves in the silmarillion routinely slaughter the orcs they encounter, I would say that either everybody us reaping shadow points like madmen or he did not follow his own ideas here...

[Falenthal]

Difficult question.

I normally give them Shadow Points if they kill the enemy in cold blood, or if they shoot at fleeing enemies (craven ones, for example).
But if they release the prisioner, we (the players and me) have a sort of out-of-game agreement that most of the time nothing will happen: the orc will be so ashamed that he won't tell anyone he was captured, or he will be embarrassed and hide in his cavern for a long time, etc.

Remember what the elves of Mirkwood did with Gollum when he was their prisioner. They took care of him and behave properly with such a corrupted creature.

[Michebugio]

That is, that though of necessity, being the fingers of the hand of Morgoth, they must be fought with utmost severity, they must not be dealt with in their own terms of cruelty and treachery. Captives must not be tormented, not even to discover information for the defence of the homes of Elves and Men. If any Orcs surrendered and asked for mercy, they must be granted it, even at a cost.

This is a crucial point that we need to analyse to change perspective.

If, in your Campaign, you play your orcs like mindless killing machines, never asking for mercy and never giving it (not even temporarily, for darker purposes later), and acting with brainless cruelty no matter the circumstances, expect the characters to capture them, torture them and execute them without thinking twice.

If, on the contrary, you play your orcs like war enemies, merciless and sadistic but still acting in their own interests (so if they feel inferior than the heroes in terms of strenght and numbers, they'll flee; if it's not their interest to kill a character if he can be useful, they won't), then the characters should deal with them in similar ways, only more civilized.

So, in my opinion, it depends on how you depict orcs, and/or what they have done.

Have they slaughtered a Beorning farmstead, killing women and children alike in gruesome ways? Then the players will (and should) exterminate them, even killing a captive after questioning ("answer, and you'll have a quick and merciful death: do not, and we'll leave you bound and bleeding here, to be eaten by wolves!").

But have they fought and defeated a Woodmen war band in a skirmish action, then they retired to plan the next attack? If the players happen to capture one, it's a war prisoner, to be treated like any other enemy warrior.

[shipwreck]

Just want to add that I love this community

[Doc Martin]

Ya know...

Does Tolkien ever actually write about taking an orc prisoner? I don't think it's ever happened.

I think he has, in a charming childrens' tale of all places:

"[Beorn] had been over the river and right back up into the mountains... he had caught a Warg and a goblin wandering in the woods. From these he had got news... So much they had told him when he forced them...
'What did you do with the goblin and the Warg?' asked Bilbo suddenly.
'Come and see!' said Beorn, and they followed round the house. A goblin's head was stuck outside the gate and a warg-skin was nailed to a tree just beyond. Beorn was a fierce enemy. But now he was their friend..."
(The Hobbit - Chapter 7: Queer Lodgings)

What do we make of that? Shadow Points for Beorn? And if so, what for - 'forcing' information from his captives, killing them afterwards, or mutilating their corpses?