Can Magic be taught?

[Paige712]

Hey everyone I was just thinking about the mechanics of magic in middle-earth and was curious if the natural sub-creative magic of those whom inherit it (i.e elves, dwarves, maia) can be taught to the likes of men or hobbits whom desire to learn the art themselves? At first I thought it impossible seeing magic as a purely inherit ability but from reading of Sauron, the shadow and sorcery it heavily implies that he taught sorcery to the black numerorians. Plus its implied the blue wizards may have started magic cults. Now if sorcery art can be taught I'd wager sub-creation art can be too.

What are your thoughts?

[ThrorII]

Magic is essentially three separate things: Wizardry, Lore, and Sorcery.

Wizardry is the inherent abilities of the Istari (Wizards), High Elves, Maiar, and other supernatural beings. Wizardry cannot be taught, it is part of the person (being).

Lore is the skill and ability to weave the subtle magic of Middle-earth in to objects. The Palantir; the walking sticks of the men of the White Mountains, with the Virtue of Finding and Returning; the Seat of Seeing at Amon Hen; the Doors of Moria; the Swords of Westernesse-which did not decay and were carved with runes against the Witch-king; the Swords of Gondolin---these are all examples of Lore. Lore can be learned, if the craftsman is of a high ability and knows the spells/songs/runes necessary during the creation of the item. Most Lore is lost by the end of the Third Age.

Sorcery most approaches Wizardry in function and design. Sorcery is the closest Men (and by extension Dwarves and Hobbits) can get to what is considered 'magic' in most RPG's. With sorcery, Men are taught the words, signs and symbols to access the power of Morgoth-the first Dark Lord, who marred earth with his power and malice, and infused his power in to the world. When Men use sorcery, they are binding themselves to the Shadow, and are soon corrupted.

[Beleg]

Thror,

Reading your reply, I realised I have no idea who the men of the White Mountains are, or what's special about their sticks. Could you enlighten me?

[Stormcrow]

Lore is the skill and ability to weave the subtle magic of Middle-earth in to objects [...] Lore can be learned, if the craftsman is of a high ability and knows the spells/songs/runes necessary during the creation of the item.

The best example showing that this can be taught is when Sam asks about the "magic rope" the elves of Lorien give him. They say they're sorry they didn't know about his interest in rope because they could have taught him much about their craft. Essentially, Sam missed an opportunity to learn how to make "magic rope."

Most Lore is lost by the end of the Third Age.

I wouldn't say that, exactly. Most of the ancient Lore of the Noldor—the best—leaves Middle-earth after the end of the Third Age, but there is still plenty more out there.

I agree with your three types, but I would give them different names. Wizardry and sorcery are workable and are used by Tolkien in this way, but what you call lore I'd call Art. It includes crafts, song, speech, writing. It's also known in Tolkien as subcreation. It is learnable, but your capacity to learn it is limited. Elves are best at it, men have a lesser capacity in it. It is the most common kind of magic displayed in Tolkien.

subtle magic of Middle-earth

That phrase has always bothered me. Pointing it out makes the subtlety not very subtle. "Subtle magic! Subtle magic!" It's not the subtle magic of Middle-earth; it's the inherent capacity and desire of the individual to subcreate.

[Otaku-sempai]

Sorcery most approaches Wizardry in function and design. Sorcery is the closest Men (and by extension Dwarves and Hobbits) can get to what is considered 'magic' in most RPG's. With sorcery, Men are taught the words, signs and symbols to access the power of Morgoth-the first Dark Lord, who marred earth with his power and malice, and infused his power in to the world. When Men use sorcery, they are binding themselves to the Shadow, and are soon corrupted.

When Thorin & Co. are laying spells over their buried Troll-hoard are they using sorcery? More importantly, are they exposing themselves to Corruption and risking the gaining of Shadow points? That doesn't seem consistant with Tolkien's description of the scene.

[ThrorII]

When Thorin & Co. are laying spells over their buried Troll-hoard are they using sorcery? More importantly, are they exposing themselves to Corruption and risking the gaining of Shadow points? That doesn't seem consistant with Tolkien's description of the scene.

The rules themselves cover this. The Dwarven Cultural Virtue Broken Spells state itself that you carve the runes to hide items. carving the runes is indicative of Lore.

I would recommend reading Tolkien's Letter #155, on magic.

[ThrorII]

Thror,

Reading your reply, I realised I have no idea who the men of the White Mountains are, or what's special about their sticks. Could you enlighten me?

In book 4, chapter 7, of the Two Towers, Faramir gives Frodo and Sam walking sticks, cut down to their size. He says they are made by the "Men of the White Mountains", and have "The virtue of finding and returning". That is all he says. I read it that they have a minor enchantment to assist travelers.

[Beleg]

In book 4, chapter 7, of the Two Towers, Faramir gives Frodo and Sam walking sticks, cut down to their size. He says they are made by the "Men of the White Mountains", and have "The virtue of finding and returning". That is all he says. I read it that they have a minor enchantment to assist travelers.

Magic item with a bonus to Travel rolls methinks? My players would looooooooooove that