Why dwarves and axes?

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workingboy
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Why dwarves and axes?

Post by workingboy » Thu Feb 19, 2015 3:05 am

I know that dwarves did not just use axes (they also used bows and swords and mattocks and I'm sure all else), and I know that axes are not exclusively used by dwarves (but also men and elves), but of course, axes and dwarves are tied together in the mythos. Barak Khazad! Khazad ai-menu!

A friend asked me a simple question today: "Why?" What was Tolkien's rationale? I don't know of any particular connection to dwarves and axes in the Norse source material (but I might be missing something). Does anybody know why Tolkien made this imminently emulatable choice?

Deadmanwalking
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Re: Why dwarves and axes?

Post by Deadmanwalking » Thu Feb 19, 2015 3:21 am

He didn't, really. Not as a decision. The Hobbit has dwarves using all sorts of weapons (most notably a sword).

But Gimli, son of Gloin, the one dwarf in LotR happens to use an axe. And the rest is history. Because LotR birthed a genre and all the stereotypes to go with it.

workingboy
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Re: Why dwarves and axes?

Post by workingboy » Thu Feb 19, 2015 3:25 am

Then why the warcry? Why does it specifically note the "axes" of dwarves? Do you interpret it not as a general warcry, but as Gimli's own invention?

zedturtle
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Re: Why dwarves and axes?

Post by zedturtle » Thu Feb 19, 2015 3:38 am

It's all Aulë's fault:
  • 'Nonetheless they will have need of wood,' said Aulë, and he went on with his smith-work.
There are some practical considerations; axes are more multi-functional than swords and probably benefit from the lower centre of balance and strength of their wielders.

But Gimli might have just been being poetic, as well.
Jacob Rodgers, occasional nitwit.

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Deadmanwalking
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Re: Why dwarves and axes?

Post by Deadmanwalking » Thu Feb 19, 2015 3:42 am

workingboy wrote:Then why the warcry? Why does it specifically note the "axes" of dwarves? Do you interpret it not as a general warcry, but as Gimli's own invention?
He actually only uses the version with axes once (at least, looking at the wiki). More often he leaves that bit out. So...yeah, I'd expect the specific weapon was a slight modification on an old war cry.

Arthadan
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Re: Why dwarves and axes?

Post by Arthadan » Thu Feb 19, 2015 10:13 am

Dwarves seem to prefer close combat, as they are not very good with bows. Now, being minners and smiths they are already used to pole weapons rather than blades. Then cutting weapons (axes) are more versatile than smashing weapond (like hammers) because the second are used against armoured foes.

Whatever the reasons, Dwarves use axes since the Silmarillion:
And the eastern host of the Orcs was taken between the armies of the Eldar, north of the Andram and midway between Aros and Gelion, and there they were utterly defeated, and those that fled north from the great slaughter were waylaid by the axes of the Naugrim that issued from Mount Dolmed: few indeed returned to Angband.
But the Naugrim made a circle about him when he assailed them, and even his mighty armour was not full proof against the blows of their great axes;
Even the Petty Dwarves:
But now at last they had dwindled and died out of Middle-earth, all save Mîm and his two sons; and Mîm was old even in the reckoning of Dwarves, old and forgotten. And in his halls the smithies were idle, and the axes rusted, and their name was remembered only in ancient tales of Doriath and Nargothrond.
Now, Tolkien was a "tree lover" and the Dwarves are presented like "mountain lovers", who chop trees for wood so *maybe* it was a way to emphasize that distinctive feature (as opposed to Elves).

Tolwen
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Re: Why dwarves and axes?

Post by Tolwen » Thu Feb 19, 2015 10:59 am

Concerning the ubiquitous use of the war cry, Tolkien is quite clear:
J.R.R. Tolkien wrote:'In this history it [the secret language of the Dwarves] appears only in such place-names as Gimli revealed to his companions; and in the battle-cry which he uttered in the siege of the Hornburg. That at least was not secret, and had been heard on many a field since the world was young.
Baruk Khazâd! Khazâd ai-mênu!
Axes of the Dwarves! The Dwarves are upon you!'
—The Lord of the Rings.Appendix F (Of Other Races)
It seems that this was a very common utterance on a battlefield where Dwarves fought, and thus the interpretation of the use of the axe as the dwarven "standard" weapon is strengthened by it.

Cheers
Tolwen
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shipwreck
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Re: Why dwarves and axes?

Post by shipwreck » Thu Feb 19, 2015 12:07 pm

Which is confusing because the host from the Iron Hills that arrives at the Battle of Five Armies, led by Dain, are shown wielding mattocks and swords. Is this attributed to the culture of the Iron Hills (likely a mining settlement) and the diminishing of Durin's Folk, or just another discrepancy from The Hobbit because of its weird relation to the greater mythos?
Elfcrusher wrote:But maybe the most important difference is that in D&D the goal is to build wtfpwn demi-god characters. In TOR the goal is to stay alive long enough to tell a good story.

Tolwen
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Re: Why dwarves and axes?

Post by Tolwen » Thu Feb 19, 2015 12:21 pm

shipwreck wrote:Which is confusing because the host from the Iron Hills that arrives at the Battle of Five Armies, led by Dain, are shown wielding mattocks and swords. Is this attributed to the culture of the Iron Hills (likely a mining settlement) and the diminishing of Durin's Folk, or just another discrepancy from The Hobbit because of its weird relation to the greater mythos?
IMO the two are not mutually exclusive. The axe probably still is the defining weapon of the dwarves overall, but that doesn't mean that local customs or circumstances precludes differing armament. Thus the axe would be the predominant weapon (Dwarves would be seen mostly with them), but certainly not the only one.

In your example, I would give the "internal" part of your explanation (the mining colony character of the Iron Hills and some local peculiarity) primary weight without disregarding the "external" part (the Hobbit only after its writing "transferred" to Middle-earth) altogether. So overall, anything that is not explained by the local customs or circumstances, is attributed to the external problem ;)

In such cases of doubt or conflict with the LotR, I wouldn't give the Hobbit too much weight and always let the LotR take precedence due to its better integration into Middle-earth.

Cheers
Tolwen
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Stormcrow
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Re: Why dwarves and axes?

Post by Stormcrow » Thu Feb 19, 2015 12:54 pm

Dwarves are associated with weapons that are also tools: axes and mattocks. I expect the tool-association is a factor here.

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