So, will we ever get a Wizard type profession?

[Glorelendil]

Good info, thanks Tolwen.

If Elves and Men are biologically the same species/race, then for magical ability to be innate and binary (that is, you either have it or you don't) then perhaps such ability derives from the fëa. But if the fëa is indivisible then Aragorn (for example) would not have any magical healing ability. On the other hand, if the fëa is divisible/combinable, then it plays a role similar to chromosomes.

I suspect the fëa is not divisible (e.g., Elros and Elrond's choice was, effectively, which flavor they would get) which...taken in conjunction with the evidence of some magical ability among men...leaves it an insufficient explanation for magical ability.

Not that any of this has any bearing on game mechanics, of course. I'm just trying to reconcile the various claims for magical innateness and exclusivity with the evidence in the text.

[zedturtle]

I fall on the side of the innate question on the permissive side (of course). All Children of Ilúvatar are at once part of the Song of the Ainur (living as they do in Arda) and not quite bound by it (having free will and not having their actions decided for them by the song). Now, the great majority of Men are oblivious to the Song; that is human nature. Many more Elves can perceive the Song... being closer to the source, more or less. Dwarves probably have a unique understanding of the Song, sort of like seeing the Matrix in code-form (to mix our movie analogues).

To perceive the Song is to understand that there is an underlying structure to the world, one not made up of atoms but of passion, prophecy and personal investitures of power from the most mighty to the most meek. Those that perceive and understand the Song, possessed of free will, can begin to manipulate it. But the response of the world is in proportion to the personal power (the stature, if you will) of the manipulator.

Making things more complicated is that the Song (and thus Arda) was marred by Melkor. To strive against the marring is difficult, to follow the discord is easier than to remake the melody. Thus, sorcery is quicker, easier, seems more powerful. But the marring goes both ways... someone that makes use of this discord within the Song finds themselves warped by the experience.

I am loathe to set any requirements on who can perceive or manipulate the Song, other than it being up to each Loremaster what they feel is right for their game. But to make major changes in the world, it should require personal investment, not just temporary resources. That's why I feel like Hope is an appropriate power source for magic: Melkor (and Sauron) lost much of their personal power by investing it into others (and other things). The good guys have done the same, but are more circumscribed in their efforts.

[Glorelendil]

I'm with you, Zed.

The biologist E.O. Wilson said, "Nature determines the bounds within which Nurture can operate." I think that is applicable here; Elves are more naturally adept with magic; most Men far less so. But even innate talents need training.

I also agree with what you said earlier: heroes are by definition exceptional, so allowing some heroes to have magical ability does not automatically mean there is a wizard academy in every village.

In some ways this reminds me of the debate about mannish ghosts: allowing one here and there does not mean that every ruin is filled with them. Anybody who feels the need can justify a mannish ghost by saying that Elendil cursed his tailor for ruining his favorite cloak, or explain a hero-wizard by saying that he is the descendant of the younger brother of a Numenorean king who eloped with a lesser Maia.

[Amargen]

I don't think there is any danger with a lesser wizard... by that, I mean someone with elvish or numenorean blood, who has learned some lore that allows him to access spells of old or has some ability of Osanwe and such.

full fledged wizards would be unbalancing. but a minor mage would be really interesting. and, most likely shunned

I ran a short first age campaign where the elves had songs of power abilities... it was fun and wild and everyone had a great time... but pulling that group into the current age would be crazy. just to make it right I drove the valour and wisdom stats to 11. 11 in homage, of course.

fun, but crazy...

wouldn't work in a 3rd age campaign. keep the mages low powered if you want to have them. subtle magic can work wonders... no need for disintegrate spells.

[Tolwen]

Good info, thanks Tolwen.

If Elves and Men are biologically the same species/race, then for magical ability to be innate and binary (that is, you either have it or you don't) then perhaps such ability derives from the fëa. But if the fëa is indivisible then Aragorn (for example) would not have any magical healing ability. On the other hand, if the fëa is divisible/combinable, then it plays a role similar to chromosomes.

I suspect the fëa is not divisible (e.g., Elros and Elrond's choice was, effectively, which flavor they would get) which...taken in conjunction with the evidence of some magical ability among men...leaves it an insufficient explanation for magical ability.

Fortunately Tolkien wrote about that too
Unfortunately, he never completed a comprehensive concept of all kinds of "magic" that appear or are mentioned in his stories, but the parts that he did write give some insight and offer a good starting point from which to extrapolate with a certain degree of precision.
The most important of the texts concerned here is found in the Issues 39 and 41 of Vinyar Tengwar (the periodical of the ). Taken together with the ontological texts in the HoMe10 it gives us a quite good idea of how Tolkien envisaged "true" (=innate) magic.
This also forms the conceptual basis (in terms of further extrapolation) of the more recent and advanced "magical" concepts for magic in Middle-earth RPG's (e.g. the Necromancy piece by Jose Enrique).

In summary, its reasoning is at follows:

1. The hröa is always a barrier for communication of thought: First your own one (=getting out from you) and then it has to penetrate another one before reaching the recipient's fëa.
2. The elvish fëa has much greater control over its hröa than the mannish one (this may the reason for the greater self-healing ability of Elves).
3. This greater control results in being the hröa a lesser hindrance and thus the greater "magical" ability of the Eldar.
4. The primary example of applied ósanwe-kenta is Galadriel, Gandalf and Elrond talking mind to mind after they return home and sit in Dunland doing this. Another one is Gandalf talking directly to Frodo's mind on Amon Hen.

Now, extrapolated from that it may be concluded that some men (e.g. Númenóreans) have a much stronger fëa than ordinary men and thus may express some limited "magical" ability. IIRC somewhere along this line is expressed with reference to Aragorn, though I cannot find or remember where that was right now. In any case, it is a reasonable conclusion. Using exclusively these innate abilities is right and natural, though you can put them to evil application of course.
Now (and here comes the "learned" magic into play), you may desire greater capability than your own gifts allow. Here the mordo element may be used as an external "power source" to achieve a "critical mass" of magical potential. Whether you require a minimal amount of own ability or not may depend on your preferences in your game. By tapping this source, you may acheive some (or all) of the magical effects displayed or described both in The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings (e.g. setting wet wood to fire instantly). The use of this source comes of course at a price. As you are using Morgoth's power that is dissipated throughout Middle-earth, you are dabbling with a dangerous thing. If used very sparingly and wholly for good and benevolent purposes you might get away with it relatively unscathed (i.e. relatively few Shadow Points), but more regular use and especially selfish or controlling one (i.e. to dominate matter or minds) will bring you on a slippery downward slope.
Technically, this could be simulated by making wisdom tests mandatory with such magic use. The difficulty and SP for failing them would then depend on specific spell and circumstances. Some outright evil spells would get you automatic Shadow Points.

An important point is that those who teach such "learnable" magic are perhaps not aware of the source they are tapping into. At most they might recognize that overt use causes damage and is dangerous and thus also teach a code of restraint and proper conduct for application. Other "schools" (i.e. in Sauron's area of influence) may encourage the use of it, as it gives power and strength and they may be more aware of the source but don't care (or actually embrace it). These latter would then be be the Necromancers or Sorcerers that we know existed (e.g. the Mouth of Sauron).

This is the basic idea both by Tolkien and the framework (i.e. it still needs refinement in details) of extrapolation that tries to bring the ideas of innate vs. learned magic together while still adhering to Tolkien's ideas as outlined above.

It also has the advantage to address the concept that men are more prone thany say elves to try and obtain more power than is good or manageable for them (the effect that also led to the downfall of the lords that accepted the Nine Rings).
It is a useful tool for temptation and (self-) restraint alike and thus well suited for a game where such concepts play a role.

Cheers
Tolwen

[Glorelendil]

Great stuff as always, Tolwen. I'll explore those links. Thanks!

[Tolwen]

Great stuff as always, Tolwen. I'll explore those links. Thanks!

You're welcome
Game terms-wise, the innate "magic" might be well represented by Virtues (e.g. Beorn's shape-changing ability or Aragorn's healing powers), while the learnable "mordo-fuelled magic" through more traditional spells with the ever-present associated risk of SP. For a selection of possible spells, the LotRRPG's list is a good starting point IMO.

Cheers
Tolwen

[zedturtle]

Great stuff as always, Tolwen. I'll explore those links. Thanks!

You're welcome
Game terms-wise, the innate "magic" might be well represented by Virtues (e.g. Beorn's shape-changing ability or Aragorn's healing powers), while the learnable "mordo-fuelled magic" through more traditional spells with the ever-present associated risk of SP. For a selection of possible spells, the LotRRPG's list is a good starting point IMO.

Cheers
Tolwen

I don't entirely disagree with this (although I've decided to make more use of the Eye of Mordor and less of SPs) but I also think there are opportunities that weren't explored by Decipher that have textual evidence.

[Tolwen]

[...]although I've decided to make more use of the Eye of Mordor and less of SPs [...]

One doesn't exclude the other...
IMO there's no reason not to use both in an appropriate setting. IMO, the SP assignment would be the underlying basic result of such "magic spell" use that is linked to the ontologic principle (i.e. the source of power used), while the Eye of Mordor is an additional practical consequence when there is currently a powerful dark overlord in power who is looking for practicioners of magic to either convert to his cause or eliminate. The SP in contrast would be applied at any time, even in those when there is no Dark Lord in residence (e.g. in the early Third Age).

Cheers
Tolwen

[Glorelendil]

P.S. I have just now sat down to finally read Letters myself, and although I'm only a few pages in find it delightful reading. I love the letter in which he corrects his publisher for inaccuracies in the jacket blurb.