Minions Dropping Immediately when they reach 0 Endurance

[Majestic]

I am consistently amazed at the new things I discover about this game. I continually think I have it all figured out, then come across something new that adds a new layer of brilliance.

Until now I’d been playing things very much like most other RPGs, where when a minion dropped to 0 Endurance, I treated the matter as if Endurance were Hit Points, and said adversary would fall (unconscious or dead, depending on the circumstances or narrative).

But as I read things the other day, I realized the wording doesn’t say that. On p. 231 (Revised) it reads:

Endurance
This value represents the Endurance rating of the creature. Unless a special ability prevents it, a creature is knocked out of combat at the end of a round if it is reduced to zero Endurance, or is killed outright when it is wounded once.

So I played it that way last weekend, and it ended up making a big difference. First off, the PCs often had initiative, meaning their attacks happened before their opponents. So if one of them reduced a minion’s Endurance to 0, it meant that their companion (the next person who took an action) had a choice to make. Do they attack the minion that already is going to fall soon, hoping to hit their weapon’s Edge to defeat it immediately (realizing that Endurance loss really does nothing)? Or do they move on and attack someone else to get more effective usage from their attack?

My players tended to move on, making attacks against another foe, but it’s an interesting choice players have to make at that point.

Has everyone else been playing this as per the RAW? Or have you been having minions drop immediately when they reach 0 Endurance?

[Glorelendil]

Oh, interesting. Yes, I've always had them drop immediately. Letting them take their turn is a pretty significant change. (Same goes for player-heroes, no?)

[zedturtle]

Huh. Wow. The extended example of combat does not reflect this interpretation, but we've found problems with that before.

Interesting. It does create a nice mechanical difference between being out of Endurance and being Wounded...

[zedturtle]

(Same goes for player-heroes, no?)

I'm not sure. It might be to make up for their inability to take knockback.

[Majestic]

It might be one of those mechanics that works differently for PCs than it does for Loremaster characters. All I can find in the rules is (p. 128):

When a character’s Endurance score is reduced to 0 points, he is physically exhausted and falls unconscious.

It would certainly make sense to make it work this way for the PCs too, in the interest of fairness (what's good for the goose and all).

[Falenthal]

I also ruled that 0 Endurance means falling unconscious immediatly.
Agreed that the rules say that the Adversaries still can act in their round (if they lost the initiative, otherwise it doesn't make a difference), but I think it can be more confusing playing it that way:
Why doesn't he fall down? If we say that attacks are simultaneous, and therefore the adversaries still can roll their turn, then what's the advantatge of having initiative?
I don't know, but I think I'll keep them falling down the moment Endurance hits 0.

Sidequestion: If two heroes are engaged with the same adversary, and the hero with the highest initiative lands a killing blow, what can the second hero do? By RAW, players have to declare their engagement at the beginning of the round, which I assume means it can't be changed during the round.
Do you allow it to be changed if their enemy is killed before it's their turn to act? Do you apply any penalties to it (such as +2TN to hit and -2TN to being hit or similar)? Does he lose his turn? Can he only change target to another creature that was already attacking him?

[Majestic]

It would depend on the narrative and what was happening. If minions were fairly close to that character, perhaps engaged with one of that PC's companions, I'd allow them to make an attack on that other minion.

So most of the time, I'd allow them to make an attack on the other adversary.

[Glorelendil]

I'm not sure that retaining the advantage of winning initiative should be a design goal. Initiative is an unfortunate side effect of turn based combat, and if a mechanic mitigates the imbalance that's a good thing.

That said, there are still advantages to going first, not the least of which is making your opponent Weary before his turn.

[Stormcrow]

This may be an instance where one should ignore the letter of the law and have adversaries get knocked out of the fight immediately. Otherwise you end up with players guffawing over adversaries who get bonked on the head, take a swing, and then suddenly realize they got hit, and fall down.

[Angelalex242]

It's true. That 'final swing' of an adversary is either something that'll be whined about, if it drops or wounds a PC, or laughed at, if the adversary misses, as it starts to resemble a cartoon.