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I've just recently started learning this gaming system, and am setting up a character. However, there is an aspect of build balance that doesn't make sense to me, that I'm hoping someone here can help me understand. In a nutshell: Is a character that maximizes his/her body attribute crippling himself/herself in combat?

Let me explain my question:

I have been hoping to build a Beorn character that is quite high in the body attribute (backgrounds allowing 7 or 6 in body to begin). The struggle however is that doing so is often paired with a really low wits score (the option for 7 body is paired with 2 wits!). Because attacking is skill based, not attribute based, the character's likelihood of scoring a successful hit doesn't depend on these scores. The likelihood of avoiding attacks, however, does look to these scores (using wits, obviously).

Now body does factor into combat, even without spending hope, in that it adds increased damage on a great/extraordinary success. By my math this happens 16.7% of the time with 1 skill point in the weapon, 30.6% of the time with 2 skill points, 42.1% of the time with 3 skill points, 51.8% of the time with 4 skill points... increasing. This makes an unreasonable assumption that every roll hits, but the math is a nightmare without it

So by this standard, purely as far as combat is concerned: +1 parry (1 wits) = +1/2 damage (1 body). And that only becomes true once you have 4 skill points in that particular weapon. At character creation, even with your most skilled weapon, this would actually only be +1 parry = +1/3 damage.

Viewed through that lense, wits clearly seems more of an asset to combat than body would be. Other sections of the rules seem to reinforce this idea as parry is demonstrated to be more valuable than damage. Let me illustrate that with examples rather than just stating it blindly.

Quality weapons (Rewards from increased levels of Valor): For the same price, one has presumably equally enticing options. Listed amongst these are a Reinforced shield (+1 parry, can't be smashed) and Grievous weapon (+2 damage). By this pairing, +1 parry (with smash immunity) = +2 damage.

2-Handed weapons or "Sword n' Board": In this example, for balance on would presumably find equally enticing reasons for each option. One could opt for a one-handed weapon and a shield, gaining the benefit of up to +3 Parry, but with added encumbrance. The presumably equal option would be forgoing the shield for a two handed weapon that does +3-4 damage (I excluded the weapons that could be 1 or 2 handed, as versatility accounts for the lower damage bonus). Not only does this second option add damage, but it increases the probability of injuring an opponent, also with an increase in endurance. By this pairing, +1-3 parry = +3-4 damage (+ injury probability).

Both of these examples indicate to me that an increase of 1 to parry, is roughly equivalent in power or allure to 2 damage. Which brings me back to the balance of Body and Wits, where movement of points from Wits to Body in a Body heavy character is working with an equation of +1 parry = (up to) +1/2 damage.

Back to my question then -- are my observations in this correct? If I build a character weighted to the body attribute, will I be hindering his combat ability?

As I mentioned at the beginning, I'm VERY new to these rules. So I would be quite surprised if there weren't several things that I'm missing. I've outlined this argument not to convince you, but to accurately explain what I'm perceiving so that if I'm mistaken you may have my thought process already to deal with. There seem to be several backgrounds that allocate greater points to body than wits, so I must be missing things.

Also, has anyone played a character that has a significant allocation to body? How did that work? If I did likewise, would I be the proverbial glass cannon in combat?

Thanks!

While it is true that with a high Wits score you can become nigh impossible to hit when facing simple foes (especially if you're playing a Woodsman) Body is still very useful. Most weapons will not kill an enemy outright, and with a low Body score, even a Great or Extraordinary success could leave the enemy still standing. One thing I've noticed is that the more enemies my players take out before the opponents get a turn, the easier time they have of the fight. Equally, I believe that Body is the Attribute used when invoking Hope on a Protection roll. This is ESSENTIAL, especially if your character is wearing light armour, as Wounds are to be avoided at all costs. They are a nightmare, making it incredibly difficult to recover Endurane. And finally, don't underestimate the use of the Skills. While all the Attributes are handy in combat, they are far more useful in conjunction with the Skills when using Hope, as they can be the be all and end all of an Encounter

Hope I helped somewhat

Beleg

Yes, actually that does help quite a bit!

Can you help my understand though why a spread of 7 Body, 4 Heart, 3 Wits; or even 6 Body, 6 Heart, 2 Wits wouldn't just get shredded like a kleenex in battle (especially wielding a 2-hander)? It seems defensive stance would be a must in this situation.

Or I suppose the balance comes in the difference between simple foes and quite powerful ones that are likely to hit you anyway? You are easily swarmed and overwhelmed, but in battles with powerful foes the ability to shrug off wounds becomes more valuable than parry?

You might also note that the more you try to build a completely "equal" system in terms of outcomes, the more you stray from plausibility. Historically, certain peoples have occasionally elected to favor non-optimal technology or tactics for a variety of cultural, economic, traditional, and even philosophical reasons. If the combination of those factors makes a certain TOR Culture or build unattractive to a given player, they are probably not constrained to choose it. Folks who want to play a particular archetype will, on the other hand, look at limitations as additional color to enhance the role-playing experience.

When building characters for other games (that are much more attribute-based than TOR), I routinely spend build points on stats related to intelligence and charisma for my fighter characters despite little or no discernible tangible benefit. Why? Because it's fun for me. Even if my character gets killed because of my sub-optimal choices, the important part is how much fun I had playing him and not whether his demise can be linked to purposefully "gimped" combat stats.

To play the devil's advocate, I can say that the Eye rune can play havoc in your calculations. Once in 12 attacks, the opponent will hit you automatically AND score a wound: here your only saving graces are armour and Body.

That said, I feel you are fairly right in your analysis. Wits is usually more useful than Body, and Heart win them all. I choose to let Beornings use Body, instead of Heart, as basis for their Endurance score (and because their Cultural Virtue isn't so alluring, too).

Corvo Wouldn't Beornings using their Body for their Endurance somewhat negate the Dwarves and their beefiness? Equally, I find the Beorning Blessing rather cool, though I've yet to see it in play.

kdtompos Speaking from my experience, balancing Wits is fairly straightforward through use of decent armour, and a shield if not using a two handed weapon. Equally, if you're going for a character fighting with a high damage weapon, chances are you're going to want that character to be one of the members of the party with a level 3 weapon skill from the outset, meaning that in Open or even Defensive stance you've got a fairly good chance to land a blow, especially against your more common orcs and wargs.

Well as a Lore master with two dwarves wielding double handed axes in our party* - I can attest to Body being super cool in combat - that strength bonus sees them hacking down enemies fairly regular with one blow.

Now the halfling and woodland woman in the part both have high wits making them really difficult to hit, but neither of them can one shot an orc. (baring penetrating hits)

It's all a trade off.

*Neither of them have 3 skill levels in axe yet

Beleg wrote:Corvo Wouldn't Beornings using their Body for their Endurance somewhat negate the Dwarves and their beefiness? Equally, I find the Beorning Blessing rather cool, though I've yet to see it in play.
(...)

I understand your point about comparison with the dwarves. I ca try some (partial) answers:
1- for the Beorning is just a bonus of 0-3 endurance points, depending on the background (just Voice from the Past got +3).
2-the Dwarve's schtick is to be armoured (see their cultural blessing), while the Beorning's one is to be unarmoured (see their cultural blessing and Great Strenght virtue). Different niches?

About the Beorning's blessing: to kick in, the Hero has to be Wounded AND Weary/Miserable... and if you are Wounded and low on endurance, your fight is going to end soon
It's cool, but rarely (and shortly) seen in play, I think.
Compare it to the Dwarve's one, that is always "on".

About the Beorning's blessing: to kick in, the Hero has to be Wounded AND Weary/Miserable... and if you are Wounded and low on endurance, your fight is going to end soon
It's cool, but rarely (and shortly) seen in play, I think.
Compare it to the Dwarve's one, that is always "on".

That's a good way of putting it actually. I guess I just assume that a Weary hero is more likely to be Wounded. I admit I do struggle with some of the circumstantial Blessings, and I also admit to trying my hardest to keep a players' Woodswoman away from trees for as long as possible, since under tree cover her Parry is somewhere around the 16 mark in a Forward stance...

I also hadn't thought about the concept of Beornings specifically being unarmoured. That does seem to balance your thinking a lot more