Any Loremasters decided to occupy the Empty Lands/New Lands?

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Otaku-sempai
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Any Loremasters decided to occupy the Empty Lands/New Lands?

Post by Otaku-sempai » Sun Jul 05, 2015 8:07 pm

I realize that this is not an issue that is likely to affect anyone's campaign unless they are setting it in the Fourth Age, but has anyone decided that the lands to the east of Middle-earth have been populated in the years since the Change of the World?

The Empty Lands were the uninhabited continents (and islands?) to the east of Middle-earth: The Dark Land (a.k.a. South Land); and, beyond it, the Land of the Sun where the Sun rose over the Gates of Morning. The Numenoreans became great mariners and explored these lands but never seem to have founded colonies or outposts in them. When the Change of the World brought about the destruction of Numenor, Tolkien wrote that these lands formed the basis for new continents (although Karen Wynn Fonstad, in The Atlas of Middle-earth depicts the Dark Land as little-changed from its earlier incarnation). The Dark Land would have probably broken up to become principally Antarctica and Australia while the Uttermost East was likely swallowed by the newly emerged Pacific Ocean while the land-masses that would become the Americas rose beyond it. Perhaps new lands even appeared on the eastern coast of Middle-earth.

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In our real world, humans from East Africa seem to have reached Australia and New Zealand around 40,000 years ago. In Tolkien's legendarium, Men only awoke in Middle-earth a little around 13,000 years ago. And as far as the histories of the Free Peoples relate, the Empty Lands remained uninhabited at least through the end of the Third Age. Or did they?

I'm speculating that Men from Harad and/or Rhun might have set forth from the eastern coasts of Middle-earth to settle in the New Lands as early as the last years of the Second Age, or at least soon after the fall of Sauron as a result of the Last Alliance of Elves and Men. This might have been about 9100 years before the present day. These might have been groups of Men fleeing from the tyranny of the servants of Sauron or simply unsettled by the coastal changes brought about by the Change of the World.

In game terms, I'm not sure that this has any relevance unless someone has taken up the career of a mariner and is exploring the further reaches of Arda (again, probably in the Fourth Age). This is the kind of thing that I would note as a background detail. I'm sure that the landmass(es) that would constitute the Americas would not remotely come into play, but this might not be the case for the regions that would come to include Indonesia, New Guinea, Australia and New Zealand. I could imagine a company befriending a 'Thorongil' in Rohan or Gondor who speaks of rumors he had heard in Far Harad of coastal tribes of Southrons who built fleets of large boats to flee eastward, seeking the Empty Lands, away from the dominion of the Enemy.
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zedturtle
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Re: Any Loremasters decided to occupy the Empty Lands/New La

Post by zedturtle » Mon Jul 06, 2015 12:24 am

I think your ideas are well-worth considering. However, I don't feel like I've gotten even a tenth of the mileage out of Rhovanion that's there, and so it might be a long time before I would send anyone to the New Lands.

But I do think that it's an excellent setting idea if you want to explore things possible in the ruleset without worrying about the 'canoncity' of anything. I imagine that those who have fled Sauron have still found wicked things, after all Arda Marred is Morgoth's Ring and there's nowhere that Men can go (other than in death) to escape this.
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Tolwen
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Re: Any Loremasters decided to occupy the Empty Lands/New La

Post by Tolwen » Mon Jul 06, 2015 2:47 pm

Otaku-sempai wrote:I realize that this is not an issue that is likely to affect anyone's campaign unless they are setting it in the Fourth Age, but has anyone decided that the lands to the east of Middle-earth have been populated in the years since the Change of the World?
There have been lots of projects to flesh out realms in the east and south of Middle-earth, beyond the borders of Tolkien's map. Most of them are more or less rooted in MERP's handling of these lands, as MERP did some original world-building in the South (and a bit in the East).
If you're interested, I could dig up some info and links for this.
Otaku-sempai wrote:When the Change of the World brought about the destruction of Numenor, Tolkien wrote that these lands formed the basis for new continents (although Karen Wynn Fonstad, in The Atlas of Middle-earth depicts the Dark Land as little-changed from its earlier incarnation).
IMO Fonstad's atlas is not as reliable on these subjects as it is on the topics covering the Northwest, so a good deal of scrutiny should be applied before accepting the assertions found there.
Otaku-sempai wrote:And as far as the histories of the Free Peoples relate, the Empty Lands remained uninhabited at least through the end of the Third Age. Or did they?
That's a good question and worth discussing in more detail as there's no easy or quick answer to it. Questions of geography (as already mentioned by you), the temporal order of events, politics and cultures make this a quite complex matter ;)

If you are looking for food for a Fourth Age campaign, Issue 9 of OM might be of interest to you. My timeline for the Fourth Age presented there also touches the subject of blending Middle-earth's history to our own (or at least its myths) and might be worth a look if these far-off events are of importance for you.

Cheers
Tolwen
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Otaku-sempai
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Re: Any Loremasters decided to occupy the Empty Lands/New La

Post by Otaku-sempai » Mon Jul 06, 2015 4:08 pm

Tolwen wrote:There have been lots of projects to flesh out realms in the east and south of Middle-earth, beyond the borders of Tolkien's map. Most of them are more or less rooted in MERP's handling of these lands, as MERP did some original world-building in the South (and a bit in the East).
If you're interested, I could dig up some info and links for this.
That's not really what I meant. I was referring to the New Lands and especially the remnants of the Empty Lands to the east of Middle-earth. Not that I wouldn't mind seeing more of Rhun and Harad. My thought is that Tolkien's Dark Land (a.k.a. South Land) might have broken up in the Change of the World to become what would later be Indonesia, Australia and Antarctica. It is also possible that new lands rose from the eastern sea to become part of the east coast of Middle-earth, but that might instead have happened at a later time (the end of the Fourth Age?).

I haven't thought very much about the population of the lands that would become the Americas, but I suppose that it might have been two-pronged: One wave coming from the sea, being an extention of the folk who migrated to the Dark Land; the second arriving from the north, over the Arctic ice and being the Lossoth or some similar Northern people.

I agree about the possible inaccuracies of Karen Fonstad's The Atlas of Middle-earth. Another good example is her placement of the First-Age dwarven city of Belgost. I disagree with her locating it to the south of Nogrod and Mount Dolmed, but she got it even more wrong in her maps of the Second Age where she moved Belegost into the Southern Ered Luin. Her original placement would have had it swallowed under the Gulf of Lhun. For the record, I support the location for Belegost to the north of Nogrod as given in The Silmarillion.
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Tolwen
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Re: Any Loremasters decided to occupy the Empty Lands/New La

Post by Tolwen » Mon Jul 06, 2015 4:33 pm

Otaku-sempai wrote:That's not really what I meant. I was referring to the New Lands and especially the remnants of the Empty Lands to the east of Middle-earth. [...]
Ah, OK I see. I must have got it wrong then ;)
Otaku-sempai wrote:I haven't thought very much about the population of the lands that would become the Americas, but I suppose that it might have been two-pronged [...]
IMO the biggest issue with transiting Middle-earth to our world is two-fold:
  • the very different geography
  • and connected to the former, the timeframe available to get from Middle-earth's geography to our world's
As we know, in the real world such processes (continental drift and creation of new continental shapes) take millions of years - a time we simply don't have in Middle-earth's context if we have to arrive at the present continental shapes in just about 6,000 years (according to Tolkien) from the time of the WotR to our present era. Thus a "scientific" exlanation is IMO pointless from the beginning.
In the aforementioned 4A history, I chose a "mythic" solution: Tolkien's Middle-earth (i.e. the First throughout the Fourth Ages) is the biblical antediluvian era, and at the end of the Fourth Age the Great Deluge drowns all of Arda. When the water recedes, the continental shapes have changed (after all, it's god's intervention...) to those of our world.
Naturally, this isn't perfect either and possibly not to everyone's taste (for various reasons), but offers the possibility to make a transition from the imagined myth to the real-world myth and hence to the real world - and within the relatively short time available.

Cheers
Tolwen
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Otaku-sempai
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Re: Any Loremasters decided to occupy the Empty Lands/New La

Post by Otaku-sempai » Mon Jul 06, 2015 8:48 pm

Tolwen wrote:IMO the biggest issue with transiting Middle-earth to our world is two-fold:
  • the very different geography
  • and connected to the former, the timeframe available to get from Middle-earth's geography to our world's
As we know, in the real world such processes (continental drift and creation of new continental shapes) take millions of years - a time we simply don't have in Middle-earth's context if we have to arrive at the present continental shapes in just about 6,000 years (according to Tolkien) from the time of the WotR to our present era. Thus a "scientific" exlanation is IMO pointless from the beginning.
In the aforementioned 4A history, I chose a "mythic" solution: Tolkien's Middle-earth (i.e. the First throughout the Fourth Ages) is the biblical antediluvian era, and at the end of the Fourth Age the Great Deluge drowns all of Arda. When the water recedes, the continental shapes have changed (after all, it's god's intervention...) to those of our world.
Naturally, this isn't perfect either and possibly not to everyone's taste (for various reasons), but offers the possibility to make a transition from the imagined myth to the real-world myth and hence to the real world - and within the relatively short time available.

Cheers
Tolwen
Yeah, I treat Middle-earth in a similar manner in my head. I also posit a Flood-like catastrophe (not the literal Biblical Flood) most likely at the end of the Fourth Age that aligns the geography of Middle-earth with that of the modern world. However, I think that the alterations wrought by the Change of the World would be a step in that direction. I also imagine that the ages before the Awakening of the Elves and the Years of the Sun take a looong time (millions or billions of years) to play out.

It is probably better to think of Middle-earth as a parallel Earth that ends up like ours, but starts very differently.
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Tolwen
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Re: Any Loremasters decided to occupy the Empty Lands/New La

Post by Tolwen » Mon Jul 06, 2015 9:10 pm

Otaku-sempai wrote:
Tolwen wrote:I also imagine that the ages before the Awakening of the Elves and the Years of the Sun take a looong time (millions or billions of years) to play out.

It is probably better to think of Middle-earth as a parallel Earth that ends up like ours, but starts very differently.
Actually Tolkien has detailed this early era quite well. Have a look at the Annals of Aman in the HoMe10. In short, according to this Time Reckoning of Tolkien, 5000 Valian Years (each ca. 9.5 Years of the Sun) lay before the rising of the sun. The Years of the Sun in the First Age lasted about 600 years. Add to this the Second and Third Age, we have about 7,100 years plus the ca. 48,000 (5,000 x 9.5) years before the rising of Anar. This would make Arda more or less 55,000 years old at the time of the LotR. Even if this is tweaked somehow due to other countings (the problem of the yén as the unit of the Valian Years), we end up with a timescale that is well below 800,000 years at absolute maximum for the total age of Arda.

So, if we take Tolkien's thoughts as authorative, Arda doesn't have the time for the natural geological processes known from our world (especially the necessary time for them to unfold). IMO this is no big deal, since we have a clearly creationist world design anyway.

Cheers
Tolwen
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Otaku-sempai
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Re: Any Loremasters decided to occupy the Empty Lands/New La

Post by Otaku-sempai » Mon Jul 06, 2015 10:55 pm

Well, Tolwen, yet another way of looking at Middle-earth is as a mixture of mythical and historical elements. Some of the more fantastic elements could be viewed as mythic additions: The relatively young age of Arda; the divine transformation of Arda from a flat-world to a sphere; the mythic origins of the Sun, Moon, stars and planets. Maybe Iluvitar smacked Numenor with a chunk of asteroid. Not that I would address those issues in-game.
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Re: Any Loremasters decided to occupy the Empty Lands/New La

Post by Glorelendil » Tue Jul 07, 2015 1:24 pm

I hear the lands of Greyhawk and the Forgotten Realms lie thataway. They are ruled by completely different laws of physics and magic.
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Otaku-sempai
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Re: Any Loremasters decided to occupy the Empty Lands/New La

Post by Otaku-sempai » Tue Jul 07, 2015 4:31 pm

Glorelendil wrote:I hear the lands of Greyhawk and the Forgotten Realms lie thataway. They are ruled by completely different laws of physics and magic.
I'm not sure about many differences in physical laws unless one or both campaign setting have some variant game-mechanics that affects such things. There have been variant forms of magic introduced in the Forgotten Realms setting over the years, but new editions of the D&D game have had an impact on that.

Ed Greenwood is obviously influenced by Tolkien. Magic levels aside, his Forgotten Realms probably feels closer to Middle-earth than does any other published setting for D&D.
"Far, far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he."

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