Worn with Sorrow and Toil

[poosticks7]

I wanted to open a discussion about the possibility of the double whammy of making a hero or group of heroes temporarily weary and miserable at the same time.

I'm interested to hear if any Loremaster has done that to their heroes and how it worked out narratively and mechanically.

I'm also looking to discuss situations that might qualify for such a impediment to the heroes. In effect it is sort of like turning the difficulty of the game to Hardcore mode

From the books three situations immediately spring to mind:

Frodo and Sam's time in Mordor would be a strong contender for such a ruling.
When the Fellowship attempts to cross the Misty Mountains and are caught in a snow storm.
When Thorin's Company are lost with no food in Mirkwood.

There are likely more.

As for other situations, the first couple I thought of were:

Being tortured (and then escaping/released etc)
In the aftermath of a particularly bloodthirsty battle


So feel free to throw out some ideas folks, either from the books or other situations you can think of. Or discuss what should and shouldn't qualify for such a harsh impediment. if nothing else it will be a good reference for evil Loremasters that want to be mean to there players, if we can explore it fully.

[poosticks7]

No one got anything to add?

[fast.git]

I'm new to the game (TOR has yet to see the table, but I'm working on bringing to my group), so I can't speak to any experience with the system... but, from what I understand of it, I'd say that the fall of Gandalf (to Durin's Bane) during the Fellowship's escape from Moria would probably be a good contender for this.

[Rocmistro]

I just don't really understand what you are looking for, or what the pre-text or assumption for the discussion/argument is. You refer to them as a "double whammy", but they aren't really synergistic and they don't really have anything to do with each other. One makes it easier to fail, the other punishes you if/when you roll an "eye" regardless of whether or not you succeeded.

[poosticks7]

Ah well, I thought I was clear in my first post (perhaps not).

Being both Miserable and Weary would put a strain on even the mightiest heroes. I was discussing the idea of what situation might call fro such a drastic ruling by the Lore Master. A situation that puts the heroes to the limit.

Another example would be Hurin's state after he was released by Morgoth.

Both conditions are bad enough on their own... but put together... is that going too far? Would you consider it as an option in your own games?

[zedturtle]

Color me a bit confused too.

Both are controlled by player decision. Weariness is pretty much directly controlled by the Journeys and Combats undertaken. Becoming Miserable is a choice too... how much Hope you spend and how much Shadow you accrue.

The LM can influence the numbers, but doesn't choose (directly) when heroes become Weary or Miserable (or both).

[poosticks7]

No a Loremaster can choose to make the PC's temporary weary or miserable. There are example in plenty of the published adventures.

I'd look it up in the book, but I'm not near my books.

[Wbweather]

Generally temporary weariness or miserableness is the result of a failed hazard. So are you suggesting a particularly bad hazard or a revelation episode would correspond to both? It would be a challenge for a player, but neither of these would impact the other directly. A miserable player is not more likely to fail a role, a weary player is not more likely to experience a bout of madness.

[Robin Smallburrow]

poosticks7

Interesting you should bring this topic up, I have just finished writing an adventure (Adventure 4 in my campaign) where the intention is to 'push the party to the limit', although at the time I was only thinking of testing the bonds of Fellowship in physical (Endurance/Weary) terms. You have given me some food for thought here - may have to make the party temporarily Miserable as well!

Adventure 4 is written with the express intent of seeing how the Fellowship goes 'when the going gets tough', unfortunately it is not playtested - the aim of the Adventure being that if the Fellowship can get through it, they can handle the much tougher tests that will come at the end of the campaign.

Robin S.

[Rocmistro]

So, Poo, as I understand, you're specifically asking what in-game life circumstances might call for the Loremaster to tag a hero, (regardless of their current End:Fat and/or Hope:Shad ratios) with both the Weary and Miserable conditions?

If I understand the question directly, honestly, I don't think there many (if any) circumstances where I would do this.

I might auto-assign "miserable" for something like the death of a spouse or child, but even then, only if I thought the player was cool with it.

I might auto-assign "fatigue" for something like living through some gut-wrenching condition, like falling off a mountain Marcus Luttrell style.

I might auto-assign both for a direct, if brief, confrontation with the physical and immediate presence of Sauron or Balrog or something like a powerful Maia.

Other than that, I would just let the Hero's present circumstances of Endurance to Fatigue and Hope to Shadow ratio decide the outcome.