Opposed actions

[Yepesnopes]

The rules say that in the case of "a character attempts an action, and another character then tries to nullify its outcome", like in classic "a hero hides to spy upon a Loremaster character who might discover him (Stealth vs. Awareness)", the procedure is as follows:

The active character rolls first to see if he succeeds in the first place: the action is resolved normally, by rolling against a TN. If the acting character succeeds, the challenging character rolls against the same TN.

It does not sound right to me. In a extreme case, let's supose that a PC wants to hide from a guard in a (nearly) empty room where the guard is sitting. The LM may decide that hiding in such a room is very difficult TN 20. But on the contrary, since there are not many places to hide, spotting someone hidden in such a room would be quite trivial TN 12 for example, while the rules say that the guard must succeed on a TN 20 roll.

Is my logic faulty?

[Glorelendil]

Success is already contingent upon two dice rolls, not just one, so you don't want to overly penalize the hero. So if the hero must pass a TN 20 test and then the LMC must only pass a TN 12 test to totally negate it, you've effectively increased the TN much higher than 20.

So I look at it as the hero already must have gotten a really good roll (and/or spent Hope) to hit that TN 20, implying a very high level of success. Therefore the LMC must achieve something equally extraordinary to negate it.

[Earendil]

I see it the same way as Glorelendil.

A high TN indicates that it's a very difficult area to find a hiding place. If the hero succeeds despite that, they clearly hid extremely well, so it should be difficult for the guard to spot them.

Or from a more mechanical point of view: TN 20 makes it tough to succeed in the first place, so if you want the player to have any chance of success, you need to make the guard's TN high as well.

[Glorelendil]

A simpler way to do it would just be opposed rolls, of course. The hero (or whoever rolls first) basically sets the TN for whoever rolls second.

[robert_pat]

I don't believe the situation that you're describing are those that the rule are supposed to apply to. I think it is only supposed to apply to two player characters trying to achieve opposite goals. Thus, I don't believe it should apply to Loremaster characters or guards at all.

If you take your situation and substitute two PCs, I think it makes a perfect example of why this rule makes sense, for reasons Glorelendil and Earendil have pointed out. Personally, I really like your variant rule, Glorelendil. If a PC hits a 20 on a roll to hide, they clearly did a very good job, so it should be equally hard to find them. And conversely, if a PC only hits a 10 on a roll to hide, the searching PC will have an easier time of it, though they aren't guaranteed success.

[Yepesnopes]

Does not the TN set the difficulty of achieving a goal, while the number tengwards set the quality of the success?
Should not be the task difficulty and the degree/quality of success be two detached things?

[Glorelendil]

Does not the TN set the difficulty of achieving a goal, while the number tengwards set the quality of the success?
Should not be the task difficulty and the degree/quality of success be two detached things?

This is what I've been thinking about since my last post. Although my proposal makes sense mathematically, it uses an unprecedented mechanic. The game uses the dice sum in a binary way, i.e. whether or not it is equal/above a TN. Not sure I would change that.

The other interesting question is how opposed rolls between heroes is different from opposed rolls between a hero and an LMC. I would tend to use the rule of thumb, "Minimize dice rolling by non-heroes."

[robert_pat]

Does not the TN set the difficulty of achieving a goal, while the number tengwards set the quality of the success?
Should not be the task difficulty and the degree/quality of success be two detached things?

You could say that there is a base TN for the first PC, and if they get a great/extraordinary success the TN for the second PC is increased by 2/4. That way the first PC can still get some extra positive results out of being very successful, but the mechanic would be much more like the standard mechanics.

The other interesting question is how opposed rolls between heroes is different from opposed rolls between a hero and an LMC. I would tend to use the rule of thumb, "Minimize dice rolling by non-heroes."

In the games I LM (and when I DM, for that matter), I try my hardest to not have any NPC roll at all outside of combat. All the power should be in the player's hands, IMO. So if a PC hides, an NPC wouldn't roll Search to find them, the NPC's scrutiny will just be built into the Stealth roll's TN.