Rivendell & Ruins of the North opinion

[Arthadan]

It seems to me a lot of the arguments against Mannish ghosts start from the conclusion that there aren't any, and/or a desire for there to be none, and then work backward to make all the exceptions...and there are lots of them...fit that story, even though in most cases it requires more complex arguments to get there than it does to allow the inverse.

Funnily enough I get the opposite impression. Please enlighten me with those lots of exceptions which I fail to find. Just to be precise, Mannish spirits remaining in Middle-earth besides Ringwraiths and Oathbreakers and frodo's Morgul wound. I guess three cases is not much to keep apart because you have lots.

Yes, death is mandatory for Men. That can simply mean the looser "Men, unlike Elves, can't choose to remain forever" not the stricter "Nothing in the universe except for Eru himself can change it." After all, death is mandatory for us as well, yet fiction, mythology, and religion abound with ghost stories.

Then let's have Mannish ghost in Middle-earth just in fiction, mythology, and religion as well

Eru decreed many things that were twisted and corrupted by others, and this "gift" is one of them. In fact, it would explain why there are no happy lingering Mannish spirits...the corruption of this gift does not make for happy spirits. It may even be that some Men (cue Numenorean royal anthem) learned sorcery to resist the gift, and now their shades deeply regret it.

There is no evidence they could or did. In fact when Sauron made them regret been mortal, instigating the rebellion against the Valar, it was because they could not resist the gift. Otherwise the rebellion would have been pointless.

And, again, even with the absolute strictest interpretation, anybody who needs a Mannish ghost in their adventure can simply decree, "She swore an oath to Eru then broke it, and Eru in His infinite wisdom recognized that she was still to play a role in His music, and so revoked His gift, leaving her spirit to linger in Middle Earth" There, done. Mannish ghost in ruin. Kick the door down, kill it, take its treasure, and inadvertently cause a chain reaction of events that lets Gollum accomplish Frodo's mission for him despite Sam's interference.

Problem abusing that is that it becomes no exception but a loose rule, and every major event that happens becomes a chain of events instigated by Eru which is supposed not to meddle save in very few occasions.

[Glorelendil]

I feel optimistic we're getting closer to resolution!

Funnily enough I get the opposite impression. Please enlighten me with those lots of exceptions which I fail to find. Just to be precise, Mannish spirits remaining in Middle-earth besides Ringwraiths and Oathbreakers and frodo's Morgul wound. I guess three cases is not much to keep apart because you have lots.

Well, if you count the thousands of Erech ghosts that's lots. (Or none at all.) But there's also:

- Barrow wights
- The broader implications of the Morgul-knife story
- The ghost lights of the Dead Marshes
- Beren's willingness to believe that the wraith of Gorlim could come to him a dream

I know you have alternative explanations for each of those, but that's the thing...it requires alternative explanations. The point I'm making is that all these cases stack up against one sentence, about the gift being mandatory, and it seems simpler to say "Involuntary, but not impossible" than to create convoluted arguments for all the counter-evidence.

There is no evidence they could or did. In fact when Sauron made them regret been mortal, instigating the rebellion against the Valar, it was because they could not resist the gift. Otherwise the rebellion would have been pointless.

Well Sauron would hardly have been dumb enough to actually teach them the secrets, secrets he obviously knew, as evidenced by the Ringwraiths. Would have kind of spoiled the whole point of his plot.

Problem abusing that is that it becomes no exception but a loose rule, and every major event that happens becomes a chain of events instigated by Eru which is supposed not to meddle save in very few occasions.

If used sparingly, it's only a problem if the underlying motivation is an aesthetic dislike of Mannish undead. If we're talking scholarship and canonicity, there's no problem. (For the record, I find it unlikely Eru would have personally interceded in the Erech case, as well, so I'm only using your argument here.)

[Stormcrow]

Barrow wights

Actually, these are alien spirits that invade the corpses of men in their barrows.

The ghost lights of the Dead Marshes

I never got the impression that these were actually the spirits of the dead. The lights themselves seem to be simply will-o'-the-wisps; the corpses cannot be touched and seem to be mere illusions.

Beren's willingness to believe that the wraith of Gorlim could come to him a dream

Beren is hardly a reliable source of information concerning the irresistibility of death.

[Glorelendil]

Beren is hardly a reliable source of information concerning the irresistibility of death.

Oh, I'm all too happy to treat all the texts as if they are just biased reports seen through the eyes of the observer. That opens up all kinds of possibilities....

Also, on the Barrow Wights, the only reference I know simply says that that spirits from Angmar went to the downs and dwelt there, not that they inhabited the corpses and animated them. Is there a reference in one of Christopher Tolkien's books that elaborates on this?

[Aeglosdir]

The point I'm making is that all these cases stack up against one sentence, about the gift being mandatory

And it bears repeating that that one sentence from the Athrabeth needs to be taken out of context for the anti-ghost argument to work. Tolkien was discussing matters like free will, not setting up metaphysical 'laws' for himself to abide by. In a preceding note, Tolkien had pointed out that the Elves were summoned to Mandos; their free will was not taken away. Then, in the next note, Tolkien said that for Men, this was not so: they did indeed die, their free will was taken away in this regard. (That's kind of the difference between mortals and immortals, isn't it?) In no way does that statement of Tolkien's rule out the possibility that Mannish ghosts could exist in Middle-earth. In fact he does not have anything to say about the existence (or not) of Mannish ghosts at all. It's pure extrapolation.

What his words suggest to me is that a) probably he was not worrying too much about Mannish ghosts at the time; and b) if pressed, he could have pointed to the fact that he was talking about people wilfully staying around as ghosts; in no way does his statement exclude the possibility of fëar being fettered against their will by, say, an oath, or by Sauron's will, or by the sinister influence of a Morgul-knife... all things known to happen in Middle-earth. You simply have to point to the Oathbreakers for clear evidence that, yes, just like Elves, ghosts do exist in Tolkien's world. Because it's good stuff for stories. Tolkien's statement simply explains why 'ghost-dom' was against God's design: Men were not meant to stay around in Middle-earth. But just because they weren't meant to, you can't argue that it never happened. IMO a 'gamist', rule-governed argument against Mannish ghosts in Middle-earth is just wrong in so many ways.

[Stormcrow]

Also, on the Barrow Wights, the only reference I know simply says that that spirits from Angmar went to the downs and dwelt there, not that they inhabited the corpses and animated them.

"A shadow came out of dark places far away, and the bones were stirred in the mounds. Barrow-wights walked in the hollow places with a clink of rings on cold fingers, and gold chains in the wind."

Unless you're suggesting that a barrow would contain an animated corpse AND a spirit from Angmar, between the physical, crawling hand and stirred bones it's pretty clear that they're one and the same.

Besides, when Tom breaks the spell on the barrow he doesn't send the spirit into death; he banishes it "out into the barren lands far beyond the mountains," to be "lost and forgotten... where gates stand for ever shut, till the world is mended." The world being mended is a reference to the end and rebirth of the world, Arda Unmarred. He's banishing this spirit to linger forever in desolate places, impotent. He couldn't do that if it were the spirit of a man—unless that spirit had somehow been trapped in Arda by a great power (maybe, say, by the Witch-king with a strike to the heart with a special blade?). No one knows what kind of spirits were sent to inhabit the barrows.

Also, the barrows were not haunted until long after their creation. Some were said to have been created in the First Age by the Edain before they crossed into Beleriand. The spirits of the men buried there would not have stuck around while the land was still inhabited and later revered. It was only when the Witch-king sent spirits to inhabit the barrows that they became haunted, and we know the barrow-wights to be physical beings. I don't see how we can conclude the barrow-wights to be anything other than the corpses of men inhabited by the spirits sent by Angmar.

[Glorelendil]

One could argue that the spirit(s) in question awakened the wights without actually inhabiting them. That when Tom was banishing the spirit he was sending off the presence that kept the spirits of the dead from resting peacefully. That the Halls of Mandos are not physically distant, requiring travel time, and that it's no great feat to pull Mannish spirits back into their bones.

And if the spirits in the barrows really are just evil spirits from Angmar*, how is that one of them leaves Merry with an image from the memory of a Dunadan?

Anyway, I'm not stuck one way or the other on proving that the barrow wights are Mannish spirits. The example isn't necessary to the larger argument, which Aeglosdir summarizes above.

*The presence of which, by the way, provides a convenient mechanism for so-inclined LMs to populate every ruin with undead, without resorting to Mannish ghosts at all. So if that's the outcome that we are trying to avoid, the Mannish ghost debate is largely irrelevant.

[Stormcrow]

One could argue that the spirit(s) in question awakened the wights without actually inhabiting them. That when Tom was banishing the spirit he was sending off the presence that kept the spirits of the dead from resting peacefully. That the Halls of Mandos are not physically distant, requiring travel time, and that it's no great feat to pull Mannish spirits back into their bones.

What happened to Occam's Razor?

Can you find any support for this interpretation? Or anyone else who has ever propounded it?

[Glorelendil]

One could argue that the spirit(s) in question awakened the wights without actually inhabiting them. That when Tom was banishing the spirit he was sending off the presence that kept the spirits of the dead from resting peacefully. That the Halls of Mandos are not physically distant, requiring travel time, and that it's no great feat to pull Mannish spirits back into their bones.

What happened to Occam's Razor?

Can you find any support for this interpretation? Or anyone else who has ever propounded it?

No, of course not. I was talking out of my nether regions when I made that up while typing. In fact, I think the typing was a few characters ahead of the thinking.

Buuuuuut, that said...

I'd like to hear an explanation of how Merry channeled a dead Dunadan that isn't even more convoluted than the above.

[Wbweather]

Unless there is some residual of the Dunadan's memory that remains in his hröa once his fëa has left. Thus the spirit can take on not only his physical form, but in some part his memory as well. This is of course merely wild speculation.