I'm all for wild speculation!Wbweather wrote:Unless there is some residual of the Dunadan's memory that remains in his hröa once his fëa has left. Thus the spirit can take on not only his physical form, but in some part his memory as well. This is of course merely wild speculation.
Blasphemy!Glorelendil wrote: My speculation: Tolkien didn't 100% think through all these things ahead of time, and there are inconsistencies.
One of the things I enjoy the most about this forum is how much I have learned about Tolkien and his middle-earth. There is a lot of knowledge shared here. If only we could get Christopher Tolkien to join and set us all straight. Until then, I will have to enjoy all the various opinions of the collection of experts we have.Wrights, Matt? Do you mean wights?MattG wrote:Also, since the wrights are active, how come no Ranger, no High Elf, no Istari, not even simple folk in the child stories knew about them being there as Hobbit wrights? Surely Rangers were no strangers to the lost city. No Lore, no Folk-lore for the Green Company taking part in city defense as explained at the beginning of the adventure. But what about the strange tale tales about the Hobbit ghosts? I am going to run this as a one shot for my group. One of the payers wants to be a Dunedain Scholar. I wonder if he should know anything upon successful rolls.
Let's burn the heretic!!Wbweather wrote:Blasphemy!Glorelendil wrote: My speculation: Tolkien didn't 100% think through all these things ahead of time, and there are inconsistencies.
It was just a dream suggested by Tom's fireside tales the day before?Glorelendil wrote:I'd like to hear an explanation of how Merry channeled a dead Dunadan that isn't even more convoluted than the above.
Errr...yeah. It's important. Because if it can't be explained in another way, then we have to conclude that Merry had an encounter with the spirit of a man from Carn Dum. And if that explanation is weak, then it weakens the arguments that depend on it. I thought that would be obvious.Stormcrow wrote:It was just a dream suggested by Tom's fireside tales the day before?Glorelendil wrote:I'd like to hear an explanation of how Merry channeled a dead Dunadan that isn't even more convoluted than the above.
It was a residue of memory from the Dunadan's body, as Wbweather suggests?
Does it really matter?
Does it change the fairly obvious conclusion that the spirits from Angmar inhabited and animated the corpses?
No we don't. All we know is that Merry woke from a dream in which he was speared by a man from Carn Dum. We don't know where the dream came from, we don't know what it meant, we don't know anything else about it. To conclude that he "had an encounter with the spirit of a man from Carn Dum" is a wild leap without any support.Glorelendil wrote:Errr...yeah. It's important. Because if it can't be explained in another way, then we have to conclude that Merry had an encounter with the spirit of a man from Carn Dum.
Dude. We're talking about haunted graves and zombies. Biology has no place here.The 'residue of memory', with all due respect to Wbweather, is not biologically workable,
We don't know all of what he told, but he goes way beyond the Downs: "When they caught his words again they found that he had now wandered into strange regions beyond their memory and beyond their waking thought, into times when the world was wider, and the seas flowed straight to the western Shore; and still on and back Tom went singing out into ancient starlight, when only the Elf-sires were awake."And what evidence do you have that Tom told them stories about Carn Dum? Indeed, given that Tom doesn't pay attention to what happens outside his domain, it is unlikely he would tell stories about such places. (I could be wrong, but I always assumed his stories about towers and swords and battles all took place on the Downs, long ago.)
You are in vastly in the minority, then. Find me some different interpretations on the Web to disprove that statement.So I don't find the 'spirits inhabited the corpses' interpretation obvious at all.
So... you're just arguing for its own sake?Again, I'm not really vested in the 'correct' answer (if there were such a thing) in this case.
Who's mocking you? Who says Tolkien has to be logically consistent and defensible?But if I'm going to get mocked for throwing an idea on the table, I at least expect the mockery to be logically consistent and defensible. I've got standards!
Well, considering I am a physician in real life, I think I understand the whole point of "not biologically workable", but then neither is a reanimated corpse, whoever or whatever might be doing the reanimating. I find the discussion interesting because I don't have an opinion on the subject. I think we need to keep in mind that this is a fantasy world that even the Professor himself never completely worked out all the details about.Glorelendil wrote: The 'residue of memory', with all due respect to Wbweather, is not biologically workable, unless Middle Earth men have a physiology dramatically different from our own. And talk about convoluted answers to support a desired conclusion!
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