Rivendell & Ruins of the North opinion

[Glorelendil]

Stormcrow, you seem unaware that I am making an argument about epistemology, not the origins of barrow wights. Or, at least, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that's what is going on. In any event, this surreal debate is teetering on the cusp of uncongeniality, so I think I shall bow out.

[MattG]

Wrights, Matt? Do you mean wights?

I don't think that the Hobbit-ghosts are Wights in the sense that Tolkien used the term in Middle-earth.

Yes, that is my wrong choice of the word and the wrong spelling, too Thanks much Otaku-sempai for pointing that out and explaining ME meaning of the word. I know those Hobbits are only ghosts of fallen archers who are in danger of being trapped somewhere between the worlds "forever". I just don't get how the PCs can help through the marching Song in the long run. Will the specters find their peace and leave the city or still be lingering (straighten by the Song) until their oath is fulfilled, when the Shadow is "defeated" (after the War of the Ring?) and no danger is threatening the Fornost ? But never mind. I will figure it out. Will read the scenario more carefully again. Don't want to spam the debate here. I thought the answer is so obvious someone would clarify off the top of head.

[Arthadan]

Errr...yeah. It's important. Because if it can't be explained in another way, then we have to conclude that Merry had an encounter with the spirit of a man from Carn Dum.

There were no men of Carn Dûm entombed in the Barrow Downs to begin with, it was the burial site of the Dúnadan of the North and Edain peoples before them. I've always got the impression it was the Barrow-wight's Sorcery which caused Merry's nightmare.

Merry knew what's a man of Carn Dûm (because he identify as such the one in his deam) plus they were evil and have some connection with the story of the Barrow Downs. I think the Wight used his fears against him to make him run to the barrow (some sort of illusion) or to scare him so much that he vanished.

My two cents.

Edit: There is a precedent when sauron used Sorcery to create the illusion of Gorlim's dead wife (it's clearly stated it was an illusion, I see you coming Glorelendil).

[Finrod Felagund]

Hi all. I've been reading this thread with interest and have a couple of thoughts, for whatever their worth.

1) I think C7 and the game designers should be encouraged to think widely and have the courage to go "beyond canon" if they think it will enhance a game. I'm sure they will anyway whatever I say! I do think it needs to be done carefully and fit in with the overall tone of Middle-Earth, but it can really add to the game. It was done brilliantly IMO in Darkening of Mirkwood with the Talking Mountain and Bema adventure for example which add a whole new level to that entire cycle. I also like the idea of Ghosts particularly in Eriador which is littered with ruins.

2) I personally thought that Heart of the Wild and Darkening of Mirkwood were absolutely fantastic. You have Elves! Dwarves! Different Human cultures, spiders, a passing god, water spirits, wolves, a Dragon, a secret passage into Eriador, sorceress, Nazgul, Orcs, a werewolf, noble horses, werebears, a magic lamp, a Vampire. You have a big bad evil guy and an overarching tragic story with depth. There's so much fun stuff it's unbelievable - and it's also done very respectfully to Prof Tolkien. Rivendell is pretty good, and I think some of it (such as Aiwiel who I think is a genius creation and I can easily turn into a Beren and Luthien type thing) is very good. Inevitably though it doesn't compare, and I didn't come away thinking that it hit the heights. I do understand that its a different product and different area and maybe it couldn't be the same, but like the OP I felt there could be so much more. I did like the treasure rules and new cultures by the way. The art and art direction also remain top notch.

Just my 0.02p - hope it doesn't offend anyone.

[Stormcrow]

That's the problem with Eriador: it's just so darned empty.

[Otaku-sempai]

That's the problem with Eriador: it's just so darned empty.

It is; but, at the same time, I do see more adventure potential in Eriador than is immediately apparent. Granted, most of that is in exploring ancient ruins in the dungeon-crawl tradition. There are several distinct cultures with which to interact: Rivendell; the Rangers of the North; Bree-land; the Shire; the Grey Havens; the Dwarves of the Blue Mountains; the Lossoth; the Dunlendings; and random Eriadorians in scattered homesteads and thorps (sorry if I've missed any).

[Arthadan]

There are several distinct cultures with which to interact: Rivendell; the Rangers of the North; Bree-land; the Shire; the Grey Havens; the Dwarves of the Blue Mountains; the Lossoth; the Dunlendings; and random Eriadorians in scattered homesteads and thorps (sorry if I've missed any).

Plus many dangers. The Rangers are supposed to spend their life time protecting Eriador, so there must be many potencial threats. The obvious ones are Orc raids or even a full scale Orc invasion from Mount Gram, Trolls causing serious trouble in the East Road, maybe some Dunlending raids as well and my favoutite one, something very nasty from the Northern Waste (after all nobody is keeping watch up there).

********Big Offtopic ahead!

In fact I'm writing a short story about two Rangers and an ancient evil stirring from the north. In case you're curious, here you are his background story:

The legend of the Wolrûg*: During the Wars of Angmar, there were many white Wargs from the North in his army and they were ruled by a mighty Wolf-king. He had a large pack and were he went, death followed. Many villages were raid and many soldiers ambushed and his legendary cunning and cruelty is remembered to this day. It is said he mated with Wargs and Witches and some of his offspring were skin-changers.

*(word of uncertain origin, probably some Black Speech dialect in origin misspronounced by Eriadorian people over hundred of years, quite likely)

I've changed the Hill-men of Carn Dûm slightly, making them a society ruled by women, as they are the ones who have the greatest Sorcery powers among them (and witches seem to fit well in Eriador, I can picture one of them as the villain in a Bree or Shire adventure, but I disgress).

The Wolrûg is the most powerful lycanthrope left in Middle-earth. I have the theory that they are incarnated lesser evil Maiar spirits who served Morgoth since before the Sun and the Moon were created (fact is they appeared then and are supposed to be spirits in wolf form) and then Wargs would be theit offspring with normal wolves (that's why there were no Wargs back in the First Age but there are many in the Third Age and few Lycanthropes). So as a Maia he is basically immortal (although if destroyed he cannot come back, he is much less powerful than Sauron). He has been in the North long years healing from a terrible wound (Glorfindel's?) but now he wants revenge.

The skin-changing offspring would be reduced to just one witch, the oldest and most powerful, and the ruler of her people (probably some wicked Sorcery was involved in her conception), and there is an alliance between the Wargs and the Witches.

The Wargs are not animals. They have their own speech and their own agenda. Sometimes they decide to ally with Orcs and allow the Orcs to use them as mounts but only on their will (this is canon).

They want to take revenge on the Elves. For that they will go first after the Rangers, finding out and cleaning their northern refuges and from there they will try to recruit Orcs from Mount Gram with the promise of raiding Bree and the Shire once the Rangers are no more. Then, when Rivendell is isolated, they will hunt down every Wandering Company and find out where the Secret Valley is.

Looks like we will need a group of heroes to prevent this from happening!

[Falenthal]

I'd like to add a few points that I think made Rivendell and Ruins, for me, a little less impressive than the previous TOR supplements. Sorry if I sound disrespectful, that's not my intention. I just want to give my opinion about those things that, if others also agree, could help improve the line even more.

Rivendell:
1) I like new rules, but am wary of new mechanics. I like the Magical Treasure, Eye of Mordor, New Cultures,... additions to the game, but using new mechanics for each (High Elves Shadow recovery, for example) makes the game everytime a bit more difficult. It's not easy to use the mechanics we all know to represent new rules, and sometimes it's impossible, but I think the development team should try (whenever possible) to give new uses to the already existing rules.

2) The atlas. The locations don't give many original plot hooks other than "there are rumors of a great beast keeping watch over an old hoard in this ruins. But no one knows if it's true...". Places like Tharbad, Fornost or Ost-in-Edhil should, I think, be worth something more than just a paragraph of description.

3) Imladris. I think it's fine as it is, although I don't see the need to include this vaults below. Not saying it's bad, only that I was puzzled to see a dungeon (that the players are probably never going to visit) so detailed, where possible quests introduced by the inhabitants of Rivendell where lacking: hooks of missions given by Lindir, Elladan and Elrohir, Glorfindel,... could have been a great addition.

4) The New monsters rules and Undead classes. I like this a lot. Everything about them. The Powerful Adversaries abilities are a perfect example of how reusing the known mechanics without adding new ones can add new depth to the game.

5) Other thinks I like are the new Undertakings or the Magical Powers for Objects. I had a hard time working out how Magical Objects are found and, specially, how the Magical Properties are activated in a Famous Weapon or Armour. An example of how the new mechanics add complexity to the game. As said before, I'm not saying there was a way round, but it's something I dislike.

Ruins of the North:
Every adventure, on its own, is ok for me. I found some more appealing than others, of course, but that's normal.
What I kind of dislike is this:
1) None of the special and original places described in the Rivendell Atlas is used for the adventures. Both parts (atlas and adventures) seem to have been designed apart. For example, in Harder than Stone, some of the Locations from the Trollshaws (Castle Hill, The Huggins Hole, The Den of the Dúnedain) or the Coldfells (The Burial Bog, Cairn of the Craig King) could have been used to link both supplements.

2) Every adventure has a "Great Evil Boss" that has great plans to conquer Eriador. It is repetitive. I would have liked more one or two big evils that plot along the various adventures. And, as happens with the locations, the NPCs described in Rivendell make little appareance in Ruins of the North: Why aren't Burzash or The Steward (p.50/51 Rivendell) in Carn Dûm? I must say I like a lot Heddwyn, the Hill-man wizard. He could have made for a very nice foe along various adventures. But in the next adventure we find the Olog-hai with his own (or Sauron's) plans, after that Gishak Gashnaga in Concerning Archers is the only Guest Star from Rivendell. But in the adventure we just see an Orc Chieftain, not his plot or anything about the bigger plan that's told about in Rivendell.
As said in the beginning: the problem for me are not the adventures per se, but the lack of links between them and with the Locations and NPCs of the Rivendell supplement.

Just my opinion, and I hope no one gets offended. It's also hard for me (as I think it should have been for Arthadan and Tolwen) to criticize the work of people I know and respect from this forums and the developers of a RPG I love.

[Glorelendil]

The existence of Ruins of the North doesn't preclude a linked-adventure-campaign-book, like TfW or DoM. In fact, RotN adventures would make excellent "filler" for such a campaign. (Imagine having six independent adventures of that sort for Wilderland, for fleshing out DoM!)

I know C7 has their hands full with plans, but I hope that Eastern Eriador does get more love in the future.

Rules-wise, I only have two nits: I've commented elsewhere on the scaling issues I see with Eye of Mordor rules, but otherwise I really like that addition. And the Hope mechanics for Rangers seems overly punitive, especially since they already face higher XP costs. Honestly I probably won't play a Ranger again because of it; it's frustrating to have to be that stingy with Hope. (Noldor, on the other hand, maybe could be tweaked, but they're workable as is.) Otherwise I love all the rules additions: magical treasure, new adversaries, and especially new adversary abilities.

[Majestic]

On a different subject. Regarding Tom Bombadil, I stumbled upon this essay many years ago. I wonder have any of you ever seen this before and what do you think about the authors conclusion?
Who Is Tom Bombadil

Not sure I've seen that one, but another that I find fascinating is this speculation that Tom could be a Dark Lord himself (note that you have to scroll down a bit to get to the article).