I decided to stop lurking and ask for assistance

[pestigor]

I've been lurking in these forums for a while now and I thought I should make my first post. I tried running an abortive attempt at TOR with some friends that play more conventional RPGs and it went poorly, from my limited knowledge of the rules to everything feeling mechanical.

When I read several threads, it became clear to me what was missing was player narration. Usually in RPGs among my friends and I the dice rolls are the game as in we want to do X so we roll and if we succeed we accomplish X.

I'm going to have to talk to my players and see who is willing to let go of common gaming tropes that we've become accustomed to and try to embrace the narrative. This is an easy game to Min/Max if a player tried so it takes a certain mind set to get the most out of TOR, I am going to try to instill this mindset into my players that are still interested in TOR and my self. I have to unlearn some old/lazy habits. If there is any advice you can share with me on how best to approach TOR please share them, or the treads that contain info pertaining to this as finding this sort of stuff on the forums has proven difficult given my weak search fu.

[robert_pat]

Welcome to the forums! I think you've hit the nail on the head. TOR is an RPG with a more narrative focus, and it just doesn't work as well with minmaxers/treasure monkeys/murderhobos, or any number of other kinds of players.

I'll preface my two cents by saying that the success of a TOR game is largely in the players' hands. It's not too large a change of style for the LM, because the GM/DM role of other games has always been, at its heart, that of a storyteller. But for players who have mostly used other systems, it can be a big change of play style.

First, I always begin my campaigns with a little spiel, about how TOR is more story based than other games, and the kinds of behaviors characters are mechanically restricted to. Hopefully this puts them in the right mindset and discourages "I'm playing a thief who'll murder any peasant for more treasure!" Another thing you can do to help your players along is to ask your players point-blank to narrate their actions and, in some cases, the consequences of those actions (all within reason, of course). Being prompted helps players to come out of their shells and take part more fully in the story. Lastly, when beginning a campaign, I always ask my players to imagine a person that they'd want to play first, and then jump into character creation. That helps them to choose options based on their character's story, rather than choosing the options they think are best mechanically.

On your end, in game, I'd not be too worried about the various phases described in the books. Don't bother declaring that your in an Encounter of that you've begun a Fellowship Phase. If you keep that kind of stuff behind the scenes, it really begins to feel like a very organic experience. Experience running the game and familiarity with the rules also helps ward off that mechanical feeling.

[Stormcrow]

As far as "narrative" goes, consider these dos and don'ts:

Do ask players to carefully establish the backgrounds and fellowship phases of their characters. It is the integration of one's own character with Middle-earth that makes the game stand out from other fantasy games.

Don't ask players to become storytellers. Most gamers are not writers and are not good at delivering stirring prose. Just watch some actual-play videos on YouTube of a successful game and you'll see this.

Don't base your adventures around combat, unless your players specifically want to be a combat-oriented group. Most of Tolkien's stories of adventures involve trying to avoid fighting. Indeed, one of his common morals is that seeking peace is more noble than seeking war.

Do take your time when you play. There's no need to try to make every moment exciting. That's like eating a breakfast of sugar every day: pretty soon you crave something more substantial. Sometimes people complain that traveling requires too many rolls. I say, so what? Take your time to make play satisfying; don't cater to instant gratification.

Don't prolong narration of dice-rolling. Whether you succeed or fail at a task, describe it sufficiently but briefly.

Don't describe every blow in combat. Get combat over with as quickly as possible. Gary Gygax once said, "Combat at best is something to be done quickly so as to get on with the fun." This also ties in with my earlier advice not to expect players to become storytellers. Listening to a tenth pause and a bloody description of how you sword ran through yet another orc doesn't conjure Tolkien at all. Tolkien, too, glossed over the gory parts of battle and focused on strategies and tactics.

Don't rely on the published adventures to spoon-feed narrative to you. At best, they can start you in the right direction. In my opinion, The One Ring really shines when a Loremaster conjures his own vision of Middle-earth, rather than just processing someone else's.

[Angelalex242]

Also, speaking as a natural powergamer, there really isn't a whole lot to minmax in this system. At best, you pick what you want to be good at and spend points appropriately to get good at it. But even someone like me can't make a character good at everything.

Moreover, the existence of fellowship roles actually encourages the party having specialists. The awareness specialist to be lookout, the explore specialist to scout, the hunter to hunt. Everyone needs Travel though. Regardless, specialization is no bad thing.

[zedturtle]

I've been lurking in these forums for a while now and I thought I should make my first post. I tried running an abortive attempt at TOR with some friends that play more conventional RPGs and it went poorly, from my limited knowledge of the rules to everything feeling mechanical.

When I read several threads, it became clear to me what was missing was player narration. Usually in RPGs among my friends and I the dice rolls are the game as in we want to do X so we roll and if we succeed we accomplish X.

Hello pestigor! Hopefully something I write here will be helpful... in my mind, one of the many great things about TOR is how well the mechanics and the fiction intersect and interact. For example, if the players are going to talk to a Loremaster Character in an Encounter then they quite likely need to introduce themselves, right? Ask them what they're going to say and then evaluate that ("you seem to be trying to hide who sent you, that sounds like Riddle" or "you're being very polite... roll Courtesy"). When it matters and the player rolled a Great Success, ask them "What did that look like?" or "What did you do to achieve that result?"

I'm going to have to talk to my players and see who is willing to let go of common gaming tropes that we've become accustomed to and try to embrace the narrative. This is an easy game to Min/Max if a player tried so it takes a certain mind set to get the most out of TOR, I am going to try to instill this mindset into my players that are still interested in TOR and my self. I have to unlearn some old/lazy habits. If there is any advice you can share with me on how best to approach TOR please share them, or the treads that contain info pertaining to this as finding this sort of stuff on the forums has proven difficult given my weak search fu.

I'm not sure that I understand the Min/Max comment... there are certainly ways to build a character that shines in one of the three main game sections (i.e. someone who is really good at Journeys, or someone who is good in Combat) but it's hard to make someone good at everything, and the way you get Advancement Points rewards a generalist rather than a specialist.

[pestigor]

Min/Max seems a bad choice of words, I mean players trying to play TOR like they were playing a bad game of D&D. I don't want to spend a whole session punishing a group for playing how they like to play so after that first attempt, I'm trying to find Tolkien fans that understand the concept of restraint and that can buy into the setting. I refuse to run a game culminating in a battle with Sauron on the edge of Mt. Doom. If I want that, I'd play MERP. I want to play in a game where the page of character background notes is referenced as much as the character sheet. Don't get me wrong, I love Pathfinder and play every week but Middle Earth is something sacred that I don't want to desecrate with plebeian hack and slash or kick the door in "adventure." I want some substance of character in my game...sorry to ramble but I don't want to run TOR for power gamers, I'll dust of Rifts or something for them. Funny enough, I've had the same problem trying to put an Ars Magica game together...

[Angelalex242]

Again, speaking as exactly the sort of person you're worried about, this is really not a genre conducive to min max or whatever. So far, my high elves with Enemy of Sauron have spent more time trying to get the free peoples to stand together instead of squabbling amongst themselves then they have trying to stab the face off of evil. This is despite having the Slayer calling.

[Glorelendil]

In my never-ending attempt to find pithy analogies to explain TOR, I'll try, "If you're only used to drinking PBR for the purpose of getting drunk, it's hard to appreciate fine sipping tequila. But hang in there, you'll develop the taste."

[poosticks7]

This thread and the talking about player narration got me thinking, perhaps we should consider making a guide for newcomers to the One Ring. I'm sure between us we could thrash out the core ideas that need to be considered.

A Player's guide by players.

[pestigor]

I just wanted to say I found a group that "gets it". What I mean by "gets it" isn't about understanding Tolkien (we do) but the narrative nature of the game. We've had two sessions so far and the Lore Master is very good. I was fortunate that a week after my semi-regular reading of LOTR he called and asked if I was interested in a game of TOR...I jumped at the chance and have been having a wonderful time. Having played I now feel more comfortable in how I'd approach the game and after this campaign I'll try and run one of my own...Thanks for all the advice BTW, it helped.