Fellowship Phase undertaking - Raise Standing

[Robin Smallburrow]

This topic has come up several times before on this and the earlier forum!

The basic problem which Francesco tried to provide 'game mechanics' for is this:

Adventurers are generally not liked/regarded suspiciously/distrusted by most 'ordinary folk' in Middle-earth, yet (and I never understand why!) most players and some LM's seem to forget this basic fact about the cultures of Middle-earth!

Why? Well, each culture has their own specific reasons, but generally its :

"You left our society and we don't know why, and now you come back and expect us to respect you? Get Outta Here!" (or words to that effect).

Standing is thus a Game Mechanic representing how a PC is viewed by the ordinary folk of his home culture, and the costs involved are intentionally tough - look how much money Bilbo threw around to try and improve his reputation 'back home', and it didn't really help him!

Standing is thus nearly always going to problematic for PC's because they are adventurers - they are not doing 'what they should be doing'! It would be interesting running a roleplay with the PC's family representatives as a special session to find out what they think about their 'black sheep' (although I don't think my players would enjoy it much!)

Note that I specifically talk about 'ordinary folk' rather than 'important people' - thats what Valour & Wisdom are for.

I do agree with the idea of gaining Standing in other ways, especially with new cultures (such as the Receive Title Undertaking)

Robin S.

[Falenthal]

Very good point, Robin.

I am one of those LMs that still has the cliché that the adventurers are heroes, and as you brilliantly pointed out, that's not the case (mostly) in Middle-Earth.

[Feanor]

In the group i played in we did these kind of things Robin, and we always had great fun with it. Important discussions with family members where the character gets critisized for his choices in life not staying by his hearth at home doing good work. On the other hand he sometimes got home with money and left that money there to shut his family members up !

Doing work FOR all the free peoples of Middle Earth is obviously not as important for a family member as doing that work for his family at home ! Working for the good of alot of people against the idea of taking care of ones family is a hard thing to live with as well.

To have these kind of sessions and for them to be meaningful the players have to enjoy it, agreed. I dont think it suits mathematically oriented players, Dungeon Bashing and looting, it serves players that enjoy playing out their personalities, quirks, wishes, and inner thoughts, people that focus on PLAYING out their character concepts to the fullest, and not the players focused on allotting treasure and status, although it could.

I do think a mixture gives a much more pleasurable roleplaying experience. Plus it keeps the players guessing whats gonna happen next.

[Majestic]

While overall that's a really good point (and it definitely matches what we saw with Bilbo), one other thing to keep in mind is how far away from his home culture Bilbo travelled, as well as the general "hearth and home" ideals of Hobbits.

But if your hero is doing great deeds closer to home (I'm thinking of heroics in Mirkwood for cultures like Mirkwood Elves and Woodmen), it makes less sense for them to be looked at so suspiciously by their native peoples.

[Angelalex242]

And I doubt Rivendell Elves in particular care when one of their own wanders off for a few years to fight the darkness.

To the Firstborn (ME or RE for that matter), the few years you're gone are about equivalent to '10 minutes ago.' Or a vacation at worst. And Elrond in particular is not the least bit surprised when one of his own runs off to fight the forces of evil for a few decades. He's done that before himself after all. Thranduil admittedly prefers his people to stay home, but even then, a decade or two is 'meh, whatever.'

And the Dunedain, for crying out loud. Instead of having to pay upkeep, they probably make you pay in orc heads or something. If you're not kicking Sauron in the knee, you're not doing your job.

[aramis]

And I doubt Rivendell Elves in particular care when one of their own wanders off for a few years to fight the darkness.

To the Firstborn (ME or RE for that matter), the few years you're gone are about equivalent to '10 minutes ago.' Or a vacation at worst. And Elrond in particular is not the least bit surprised when one of his own runs off to fight the forces of evil for a few decades. He's done that before himself after all. Thranduil admittedly prefers his people to stay home, but even then, a decade or two is 'meh, whatever.'

By the same token, to the firstborn, they've fought a LOT of evil in their time. And seen it matter not. Therefore, raising standing should be proportionally harder. They've seen lots die in the name of good, and gained shadow from it, and lost hope. They're in "keep what we can here until we're forced to sail West" mode. So, to have standing with/amongst them, you have to be epic. You have to make a difference. A big and lasting difference.

Or at least throw really totally freaking unforgettable parties.

And by that, I mean, probably that 12 TP is spent on ONE party. Or maybe split between two. Something extravagant enough to be memorable for a decade or two. The status 2? 24 TP in a party or 3... for the right elves at the right time. You have to be way over the top to beat the First Ones' memories of the first age.

Either that, or given them hope, real true hope for the future to start to regain the glories of the past. And even defeating Sauron and destroying the One Ring doesn't do that.

Even many younger elves give up hope and go West, some within a millenium, knowing that the Time of Elves is past...

[Angelalex242]

Well, the elven bigshots are very well aware of what the destruction of the One Ring actually means.

"If Sauron regains the ring, our minds will be open to him and we are defenseless...and yet if it is destroyed, the Power of the Three will be no more. Time will come here, and Lothlorien will fade. You are the footstep of doom for us." </Galadriel>

So elves that fight Sauron are basically, from the perspective of the Firstborn, just doing some janitorial work in mopping up Sauron before they head home. And in Elrond's case, he's foreseen what his daughter's going to do and is trying to make Middle Earth a nicer place for her in her last 120 years or so. Sticking around is pretty much a favor to Arwen.

[gentlemansavage]

The real issue, for me as my group heads into a Fellowship phase, is that the benefits of Standing aren't very compelling. In general it seems player-heroes spend little time among their own people, so the Standing doesn't even come into play.

[MasterSmithwise]

I think that standing is being looked at incorrectly. If you've done a few years of adventuring, accomplished a few tasks.... on the broad scope of things the global community as a whole isn't going to know who you are. Spend money on resources and once you've cashed in on a horde start worrying about sending your riches home to increase your standing. A young adventurer shouldn't often walk into a king's hall and be recognized any more than just "I believe you that you did a thing for my kin but I don't know your name".

[Blubbo Baggins]

The real issue, for me as my group heads into a Fellowship phase, is that the benefits of Standing aren't very compelling. In general it seems player-heroes spend little time among their own people, so the Standing doesn't even come into play.

This is where RP comes in. The benefits mechanically are small, although you DO add your Standing rating when Encountering your own folk, so if for example, you have a Standing of 3 and you have a Valour of 4, your Tolerance is going to be very high. That's not taking into account any other modifiers.

That being said, during the Fellowship Phase the players can really shape the story...the higher Standing, the more they can change. They can "choose" their own Adventure. For example, say an Adventurer has a Standing of 5; they can basically influence the King that "We should do X", and then during the next adventure phase, they can do X, with the King's support. So if you want to rise up the Dwarves to retake Moria, and have a Standing of 5 or 6, the LM should definitely allow it, and send LOTS of resources and Dwarves along with you.

I think what is really missing from the rules is more explanation of the RP possibilities with a higher standing. But why don't we create a document with ideas about what kinds of things PCs could make happen at each level of Standing? Here are some ideas:
Standing 0: don't expect much more than concerned looks and suspicion; very few will go out of their way to talk to you, much less trust you. You are only as good as the money in your pocket, if that.
Standing 1: You are welcomed by folk who don't know you as long as you are a paying guest. The tales of your deeds, unless personally witnessed, will be met with suspicion. Only the Wise whom you have directly served, or your own family may care for what happens to you.
Standing 2: You are welcomed by folk of your own culture and can expect some hospitality from them. Certain groups of people within your culture might even know your name for some of your deeds, especially if it directly affected them (guards, fishermen, woodmen in one of the towns, etc.). You can probably get an audience with some more important figures, who might be glad for your service, but will not have high expectations of you, nor change policy/put men at risk for any of your propositions.
Standing 3: Etc....