Question on the Extended example of combat in Rulebook

[Brandiwise]

Hoping someone can clear up a query for me.

On p183 we see an Attercop attacking The Bride with its Ensnare ability. The roll is an Extraordinary success. The LM uses the Seize Victim ability to web The Bride (no problem here) and then immediately uses the spider's Sting secondary attack. What is allowing the secondary attack? I thought it might be the effect of the Extraordinary Success but I can't find anything to support this. Meanwhile the second spider then attacks Beran and also hits but the example simply says that the spider moves in to use the Sting the following round - perhaps the LM is being generous?

On a related query am I right that Ensnare just reduces Parry and prevents stance change, I.e. It doesn't affect the player's attack itself? Just bemused that a player attacked in rearward (using great leap) and ensnared could still draw and fire their bow the following round without penalty...

We started a new DoM campaign and I'm having the players deliver the message to Ceawin and thought I'd spice up the journey a bit with some spiders. I have a party of 5 and am thinking of 1 Attercop per person supported by a Giant Spider as a leader type. I want it to be a bit of a challenge for them but obviously need to get a handle on their abilities.

Thanks to all for replies.

[Falenthal]

Attercops are the most difficult creatures to understand in the game... for the LM.

This topic has come up several times since the beginning of the game, and the Revised Edition only added some more confusion to the topic due to some changes/mistakes that contradict themselves.

As far as I know, there hasn't been a clarification from Francesco or any other developer on the Attercops, their Great Leap, the Seize Victim ability and the changes from the slipcase version of the rules to the Revised, but here's some info about it:

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=4124&hilit=attercops

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=802&hilit=attercops

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=2703

[Brandiwise]

Thanks very much. I will go with the Secondary attack on a Great or Extraordinary Success. I saw the asterisk and was looking in vain for a rule like that! I guess it gets confused with the asterisk for the poison entry on the same page.

[Majestic]

Falenthal already answered this with great links, but I just wanted to chime in and point out that the combat example is definitely NOT a case of a LM just being "generous". Examples are there to give us an idea of how to play the game, so deviating in a big way from the standard rules (to just be generous, for example), especially in an extended example of play, would do nothing but add confusion and steer everybody in the wrong direction.

Don't get me wrong; there's lots of cases in TOR where things come down to the Loremaster being the one who decides things, rather than relying on black and white rules. But there's other mechanical areas of the game that are clearly defined (more like a board game).

But in this case I think the simplest explanation is that the Attercop should retain the ability to immediately make a secondary (Sting) attack when getting an extraordinary or great success, as it did in the earlier (slipcase) rules.

As far as the ensnared character being hindered in their fight: you're right, that could make sense. But I think you'll find that this game is brilliantly balanced, mechanically. Most every little nuance is carefully considered, so they probably felt that giving an ensnared character more restrictions (than what is already there) would be too much (i.e., too restrictive to the character).

[Falenthal]

Related to the Extended Example in the Revised Rulebook, there's an errata that is kind of a leftover from the slipcase version:

You'll find in the example that the Preliminary Rolls for Combat advantatge are done after the Opening Volleys, but the Revised rules state that the Preliminary Rolls are done before Opening Volleys (so that archers may benefit from the extra dice... and try some Called Shots with one extra die to go look for a Wound before melee starts!).

Seeing that this part was kept as in the old version, just added a bit more of confusion to the doubt wether Attercops could go for a second attack (as the extended example shows and the asterisk points to) or not (as the disappearence of that part in the descriptive text of the creature could also imply).

[Brandiwise]

Thanks again guys. I'll let the rearward character fire a bow without penalty in that case even though it seems a bit odd when you try to rationalise it.

[Majestic]

You'll find in the example that the Preliminary Rolls for Combat advantatge are done after the Opening Volleys, but the Revised rules state that the Preliminary Rolls are done before Opening Volleys (so that archers may benefit from the extra dice... and try some Called Shots with one extra die to go look for a Wound before melee starts!).

I was glad to see this change. Now it's easier for me to remember to do Preliminary Rolls, since it always happens first.