Silmarillion license

[Soy Frappe]

Hello all,

I have been lurking here since breaking down and buying every TOR supplement a few weeks ago. I am so happy with this product which has more or less made me less nostalgic for ICE MERP than I had previously been. Beautiful art, great atmosphere, high quality products. I hope the license stays with Cubicle7 for many years to come.

One thing I am curious about though: I have searched the forum for this little fact, but couldn't seem to find specific information related to the relation of Tolkien's Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales in regards to licensing. Neither work belong to Saul Zaentz's Middle Earth Enterprises- yet ICE MERP appeared to use both works freely- producing high quality (if a bit speculative) supplements dealing with the Istari, the Valar, and other characters and events taking place in the First and Second Age.

How did they get around this? I believe Decipher may have also included some similar info. Has Peter Jackson simply ruined the good faith of Christopher Tolkien and the Tolkien Estate to such a degree that they are no longer willing to lend Tolkien's work to "Other hands and other minds"? If so, I find it to be a sad state of affairs.

I know that even after nearly 5 years of license, we still haven't dealt with Middle Earth mainstays like Rohan, the Shire, or Gondor... so I am getting a bit ahead of myself. However, does it mean it's hopeless to wish for a Beleriand or Numenor sourcebook at some point? Or rather, simply game books and campaigns which mention those names in any amount of depth?

Anyways, this is just something that struck me the other day after reading Le Monde's interview with Christopher Tolkien from a few years ago.

[Hermes Serpent]

The Professor never signed away rights to anything other than the LotR or The Hobbit and his heirs never will as Christopher (who is the lead for the family) wants to preserve the academic approach to his father's work. He jealously guards access to the extant material and allows very little access to the unpublished material which I believe at one time was stored in a French barn.

[Dalriada]

Neither work belong to Saul Zaentz's Middle Earth Enterprises- yet ICE MERP appeared to use both works freely- producing high quality (if a bit speculative) supplements dealing with the Istari, the Valar, and other characters and events taking place in the First and Second Age.

How did they get around this?

The RPG industry (and the Tolkien licence) was under much less scrutiny back then.

[Tolwen]

Neither work belong to Saul Zaentz's Middle Earth Enterprises- yet ICE MERP appeared to use both works freely- producing high quality (if a bit speculative) supplements dealing with the Istari, the Valar, and other characters and events taking place in the First and Second Age.

How did they get around this?

The RPG industry (and the Tolkien licence) was under much less scrutiny back then.

That's exactly the point. Formally, ICE didn't have any rights to Sil, UT etc. material as well. But as Dalriada said, back in those days it was a niche market with relatively little money involved overall, so the IP holders (Tolkien Estate) didn't bother to intervene. Alternatively, they were not aware of the fact altogether - remember that this was before the internet with its ability to distribute information extremely far and wide. Either way, the result was the same.
Since the PJ movies came out, all stuff related to the LotR and Middle-earth suddenly became a market for hundreds of millions of dollars - with the associated litigations about distribution of that money - and since then the Tolkien Estate has been very keen to observe that Tolkien Enterprises (now Middle-earth Enterprises; Saul Zaentz' company) doesn't overstep his license even by a millimetre. The poor relationship of the Tolkien Estate (represented primarily by Christopher Tolkien) with Middle-earth Enterprises/the movie makers is contributing to this significantly.

Cheers
Tolwen

[Soy Frappe]

As I said, it's all very sad to hear. I do understand a bit the Tolkien Estate's wishes to focus on the academic nature of Tolkien's work- especially (IMHO) after some of the rather overbearing marketing that has taken place over the past 15 years. On the other hand, I still feel that paper and pencil RPGs are still such a niche market that the fandom which they inspire are more akin to the Tolkien Societies of the 60's and 70's rather than the recent Burger King promotions and mediocre PC games. (Again, IMHO).

An interesting point is that I have heard without much direct evidence albeit, that ICE MERP had Christopher Tolkien directly involved in approval for products at some point. Although it's hard to imagine his approval for that ME map that came in the 2nd Edition.



Later they appeared to have gone light on all the non-canon stuff however and got back to focusing on NW Middle Earth- a much more focused and disciplined approach ( in the style of our own TOR). This apparently may have been in regards to tightening of enforcement of licensing rules, I guess.

Anyways, there's plenty in the 4 books and appendices to make for a couple dozen more products I am sure. (does Cubicle7 have access to all appendices? hmm) Still, here is hoping that some of you with a lot of time and inspiration someday get the itch to create one of those high quality home-brew supplements for the 1st Age. (tastefully done in accordance with canon of course)

[Tolwen]

As I said, it's all very sad to hear. I do understand a bit the Tolkien Estate's wishes to focus on the academic nature of Tolkien's work- especially (IMHO) after some of the rather overbearing marketing that has taken place over the past 15 years. On the other hand, I still feel that paper and pencil RPGs are still such a niche market that the fandom which they inspire are more akin to the Tolkien Societies of the 60's and 70's rather than the recent Burger King promotions and mediocre PC games. (Again, IMHO).

All RPG's are licensed by Middle-earth Enterprises (MEE) as well as the movies and all other products (games, miniatures, merchandise etc.). So I guess it's a case of "guilt by association": Due to this, they are caught in the fallout of all trouble that MEE has with the Estate.

An interesting point is that I have heard without much direct evidence albeit, that ICE MERP had Christopher Tolkien directly involved in approval for products at some point. Although it's hard to imagine his approval for that ME map that came in the 2nd Edition.

The continental map you posted actually was one of the first products that came out for MERP in 1982 and thus even predated the Rulesbook by 2 years.
I don't know whether that ever got any TE approval, but Pete Fenlon (the artist) claimed to have had access to the Ambarkanta map sketch before drawing up the map.

You may find interesting stuff for Middle-earth games and academic interests in Other Minds, the magazine linked to in my signature (if you don't know it already).

Cheers
Tolwen

[Glorelendil]

Here's irony: I'm sure we all side philosophically with the Tolkien family, but if MEE had never gotten that original, much-regretted license we might not have any Middle Earth RPGs.

[Tolwen]

Here's irony: I'm sure we all side philosophically with the Tolkien family, but if MEE had never gotten that original, much-regretted license we might not have any Middle Earth RPGs.

Indeed; it is as with the Noldor of Eregion - we'd love to both have and eat our cake

Cheers
Tolwen

[Tolwen]

Later they appeared to have gone light on all the non-canon stuff however and got back to focusing on NW Middle Earth- a much more focused and disciplined approach ( in the style of our own TOR). This apparently may have been in regards to tightening of enforcement of licensing rules, I guess.

As far as I know from back it had nothing to do with that. The last product was published in 1997, long before the movies and the associated hype (and license trouble).
IIRC, the later publications were much improved since the editors had realized that some products from the 2nd ed. in the early- to mid-90s (especially 2nd ed. Angmar and Mirkwood) were of such poor quality that something had to be done.

Cheers
Tolwen

[Otaku-sempai]

I don't know whether that ever got any TE approval, but Pete Fenlon (the artist) claimed to have had access to the Ambarkanta map sketch before drawing up the map.

Cheers
Tolwen

If Fenlon did have access to the Amarkanta sketches then he does not seem to have actually referenced them when he crafted his map of Arda for ICE. His Arda does not much resemble Tolkien's map. I do rather like Karen Wynn Fonstad's interpretation:



Enlarged Image: http://i.stack.imgur.com/36XEg.jpg