Kill that guard before he rises the alarm

[Yepesnopes]

Why do you consider a standard TN14 Stealth check not suitable?
Sneaking at someone's back is difficult (higher TN), but if the target is drunk it becomes easier (lower TN). The addition of both would just turn the action into an average difficulty.

My thought was that if sneaking pass him would be an easy TN 12 stealth check. Sneaking and killing him must be higher difficulty Stealth check.

Taking into accountI the lines of Gandalf talking to Frodo about Gollum and Bilbo, I will tethink the shadow points thing. Although I think along the same lines as Feanor...

[Aeglosdir]

I take it that most people on here are aware of the dual nature of Orcs in Tolkien's texts: on the one hand, they are demons (orcneas) or beasts that multiply like flies; on the other, they show some quite strong resemblances to humans at times. I'm sure you're aware already what Tolkien wrote in Morgoth's Ring, and what critics like T.A. Shippey have written about them (if not, some good reading ahead!).

My own take on Orcs is as follows. First, the Orcs are indeed beyond salvation in Middle-earth (as Tolkien wrote in a letter somewhere). There's nothing you can do to save or change them. It's beyond the powers of the Free Peoples, even of the Valar.

As for the creepy resemblances to human social life, I put them down to the fact that Orcs were created in mockery of the human (Elven) race. So, they talk like humans do, but it's parrot or robot talk. When it comes down to it, Orcs just obey orders. You can sit down and have a chat with them, maybe play a game of cards, but when the order arrives from above they simply lean over and slit your throat. Just like that, without a second thought. They simply do what's necessary.

It's not that they treat you 'overly' cruelly or call you names before they kill you. It's that they do so without regret, and pity. They are mindless and soulless slaves, robots, creatures of shadow.

So, in my game, the general rule would be that you do not get Shadow points for destroying a creature of shadow.

But, again in my game, you do get Shadow points for behaving like an Orc: doing Orcs' work. So, the question is: if you behave like an Orc against an Orc, what happens? My answer would be that it's not mechanically decided but depends on the character's arguments and convictions. If they're slipping into 'just doing what's necessary' or the-end-justifies-the-means territory, corruption test.

Also in my game, the growing humanity of Third-age Orcs kind of horrifies the White Council and adds to the evil of Saruman's Man-Orc hybrids. In the First Age, the Elves fought monsters, demons; now the enemies seem part human, and maybe they are not beyond salvation after all. Orcs get to be more like Men and Men get to be more like Orcs. In the end, the Wise despair and leave Middle-earth, or disappear into the shadows. Arda is marred, and will remain so to the end.

[Falenthal]

Why do you consider a standard TN14 Stealth check not suitable?
Sneaking at someone's back is difficult (higher TN), but if the target is drunk it becomes easier (lower TN). The addition of both would just turn the action into an average difficulty.

My thought was that if sneaking pass him would be an easy TN 12 stealth check. Sneaking and killing him must be higher difficulty Stealth check.

Other option would be to ask for two skill checks: one for approaching the target unnoticed (TN12, if you consider the situation to be easy) and another one to do the killing (maybe Stealth again, or Dagger, or some melee weapon).

Or just consider if the situation is very important (which would lead to multiple skill checks, or difficult ones) or just a small situation in a larger adventure that should be solved easily with only one typical skill check.

As for the Shadow gain issue, TOR is open enough so that anyone can do as wanted and still be in the RAW. Go with what you and your group feel is more enjoyable.

[Yepesnopes]

Other option would be to ask for two skill checks: one for approaching the target unnoticed (TN12, if you consider the situation to be easy) and another one to do the killing (maybe Stealth again, or Dagger, or some melee weapon).

I think the RAW say something regarding lowering the TN of a difficult skill check by making it an extended check. This indeed could be a possibility, from TN 18 or so down to TN 16 by making two stealth checks.

[Arthadan]

My emphasis:

They [Orcs] would at least 'be' real physical realities in the physical world, however evil they might prove, even 'mocking' the Children of God. They would be Morgoth's greatest Sins, abuses of his highest privilege, and would be creatures begotten of Sin, and naturally bad. (I nearly wrote 'irredeemably bad'; but that would be going too far. Because by accepting or tolerating their making – necessary to their actual existence – even Orcs would become part of the World, which is God's and ultimately good.)
Letter #153 To Peter Hastings

[Aeglosdir]

Arthadan: I know. That's why I was careful to write, 'It's beyond the powers of the Free Peoples, even of the Valar'. You're right to point out that it's not beyond the power of Eru. That's a bit of a moot point for people within Arda, though, since setting Arda right means breaking it completely to root out Melkor's influence (since he had a hand in its making).

To put it more in game terms, Middle-earth just does not work IMO with Orcs as oppressed humans, people who have had a miserable childhood but who can be readapted into human society. Men or Elves cannot undo Melkor's evil. It's better to think of Orcs as demons really.

[Angelalex242]

...I think the idea is that people are confusing Middle Earth orcs with D&D orcs.

If a D&D orc met a middle earth orc...there's a big difference. The D&D orc is redeemable (And in fact, there's many good aligned orcs. USUALLY Chaotic Evil isn't always.) The Middle Earth orc is Always Chaotic Evil.

As such, the Middle Earth orc is, pound for pound, far more depraved then the D&D orc. That is, a Middle Earth Orc is to D&D Orcs what serial killers are to normal people.

[Arthadan]

I think this is pretty much sum up Tolkien view on the matter:

They [Orcs] might have become irredeemable (at least by Elves and Men), but they remained within the Law. That is, that though of necessity, being the fingers of the hand of Morgoth, they must be fought with the utmost severity, they must not be dealt with in their own terms of cruelty and treachery. Captives must not be tormented, not even to discover information for the defence of the homes of Elves and Men. If any Orcs surrendered and asked for mercy, they must be granted it, even at a cost.* This was the teaching of the Wise, though in the horror of the War it was not always heeded.

(* [footnote to the text] Few Orcs ever did so in the Elder Days, and at no time would any Orc treat with any Elf. For one thing Morgoth had achieved was to convince the Orcs beyond refutation that the Elves were crueller than themselves, taking captives only for 'amusement', or to eat them (as the Orcs would do at need).)

History of Middle-earth vol. X - Morgoth's Ring

They are irredeemable at least by Men and Elves. Could the Valar or the Istari redeem some Orcs? Maybe but they probably lack a reason to even try. What about Orc-men and Men-orcs?

Now, what about backstabbing an Orc? It's not cruelty nor toment, but it's treachery (not a fair fight). I think the rule here is "it's corrupting (in game terms) to deal with an Orc in the same way an Orc would do". In this case, if the party needs to take out an Orc guardian with stealth to prevent him to raise the alarm, I think it's justified unless it's done in a vicious way (causing unecessary suffering).

My two cents.

[Terisonen]

GM must set a alternative for this kind of choice not be made. If player have no choice, then it's not misdeed.

[Yepesnopes]

I think this is pretty much sum up Tolkien view on the matter:

They [Orcs] might have become irredeemable (at least by Elves and Men), but they remained within the Law. That is, that though of necessity, being the fingers of the hand of Morgoth, they must be fought with the utmost severity, they must not be dealt with in their own terms of cruelty and treachery. Captives must not be tormented, not even to discover information for the defence of the homes of Elves and Men. If any Orcs surrendered and asked for mercy, they must be granted it, even at a cost.* This was the teaching of the Wise, though in the horror of the War it was not always heeded.

(* [footnote to the text] Few Orcs ever did so in the Elder Days, and at no time would any Orc treat with any Elf. For one thing Morgoth had achieved was to convince the Orcs beyond refutation that the Elves were crueller than themselves, taking captives only for 'amusement', or to eat them (as the Orcs would do at need).)

History of Middle-earth vol. X - Morgoth's Ring

They are irredeemable at least by Men and Elves. Could the Valar or the Istari redeem some Orcs? Maybe but they probably lack a reason to even try. What about Orc-men and Men-orcs?

Now, what about backstabbing an Orc? It's not cruelty nor toment, but it's treachery (not a fair fight). I think the rule here is "it's corrupting (in game terms) to deal with an Orc in the same way an Orc would do". In this case, if the party needs to take out an Orc guardian with stealth to prevent him to raise the alarm, I think it's justified unless it's done in a vicious way (causing unecessary suffering).

My two cents.

Great! Thanks for this quote, I don't know that much about the thoughts of Tolkien.

I like the way you put it.