Kill that guard before he rises the alarm

[Otaku-sempai]

Otaku-sempai: At the risk of going in circles: you are aware that Tolkien's statement quoted by Arthadan above was made in this very context? "...the Wise in the Elder Days taught always that the Orcs were not 'made' by Melkor, and therefore were not in their origin evil. They might have become irredeemable (at least by Elves and Men)..." So, the point still stands: no matter their origin (human, Elven or something else), they have become irredeemable. So a hero in Middle-earth might well hope to achieve what you describe, but it appears that his hopes would be misguided.

In my view, awarding Shadow points for destroying a creature of shadow may seem a bit contradictory and hard to justify. The solution (IMO) is that it matters if you lived up the the high moral standards asked of you. Did you give the Orc a chance to surrender? Did you fight fair? Did you give in to temptation and take the easy way out? Stuff like that.

As has been pointed out, Professor Tolkien wrote that Orcs "might have become irredeemable (at least by Elves and Men)," he did not state it as an incontrovertible fact that this would have been so. I wrote myself that my example was an extreme one that might represent an ideal scenario. In any case, that does not excuse dishonorable behavior on the part of Heroes; although the awarding of Shadow points is still dependent on the views of the Loremaster.

[Aeglosdir]

Fair enough. The way I read it, Tolkien was saying, 'they might have become irredeemable (i.e. maybe they were not always so), but they remained within the law'; not 'they might have become irredeemable' (i.e. maybe they haven't). Splitting hairs, though, most probably.

[Yepesnopes]

This discussion is being most helpful for me.

In light of what I have read so far, I have to say that sneaking past and orc guard, stab him in order to avoid him raising the alarm because you want to rescue a companion... I won't grant shadow for this.

[DavetheLost]

I think we all agree that sneaking up behind a drunken guard and slitting his throat is not a very heroic act. It doesn't matter whether the guard is an Orc or an Elf, slicing throats from behind is not what heroes do.

That being said, sometimes our protagonists must also be pragmatic. Walking up to the guard and challenging him to a fair fight is going to result in the alarm being raised and the prisoners remaining unrescued. The guard must be removed, and best it were done swiftly and silently.

If the players acted swiftly, did not torture the guard and did not gloat about it I would not award Shadow points or even call for a Corruption test. Orcs are the enemy and killing enemies is acceptable. If the players began acting like killing the guard was a bonus, tortured him, or otherwise acted in an Orcish manner, I would require Corruption tests and give out Shadow.

Context matters. Murder is killing out of spite and malice. Killing an Orc guard in order to free captives need not be spiteful and malicious.

Look at the Rohirim attack on the Orcs bearing off Merry and Pippen. They attacked the Orcs without warning and without quarter. Farmir had no hesitation about striking the Easterlings from ambush.

[Angelalex242]

I say again: Sound military tactics is not evil or shadow worthy. Just don't violate the Geneva Convention and you're probably fine.

[Otaku-sempai]

Ethics and morality aside, I would reduce the TN by at least 1, maybe 2, because of the guard being drunk.

[Glorelendil]

That being said, sometimes our protagonists must also be pragmatic.

Sure. And sometimes being pragmatic means, "I'm willing to do something that seems wrong for a greater good." And that is exactly the kind of thinking that leads to corruption. Sauron cackles gleefully in his tower when heroes make these sorts of decisions.

If the players acted swiftly, did not torture the guard and did not gloat about it I would not award Shadow points or even call for a Corruption test.

I would agree on the former, but only because the latter is the perfect option: "How does assassinating an orc feel? Do you take it in stride, or does it give you bad dreams later? Roll the dice and find out."

But, again, that's just me, because I feel that fits the flavor of Tolkien's world. Silently assassinating bad guys, with no moral qualms, feels more like a video game or action movie.

Your mileage may vary.

[Angelalex242]

You're implying, then, there's stricter standards then the Geneva Convention at work here.

And if there are such stricter standards, what do they need to be?

[Stormcrow]

Sauron cackles gleefully in his tower when heroes make these sorts of decisions.

Sauron doesn't give a fig about the state of your soul. He wants to rule, he thinks he deserves to rule, and he thinks he's right. That's all he cares about.

Silently assassinating bad guys, with no moral qualms, feels more like a video game or action movie.

As others have said, it depends entirely on context. Sneaking up and killing a couple of orc guards because there is little other choice isn't worth Shadow. Making a habit of doing this when there are other possibilities is worth Shadow. Sneaking up and killing a couple of orcs who aren't causing you any trouble is worth a lot of Shadow.

[zedturtle]

You're implying, then, there's stricter standards then the Geneva Convention at work here.

And if there are such stricter standards, what do they need to be?

Thou shall not kill is a good start.

Thou shall not kill the defenseless is probably more practical.

Trick the guard, lead him away, incapacitate him, etc. Leave him some option to redeem himself, rather than preventing him from having any chance to do so. The fact that he will not redeem himself is irrelevant; he must be given the chance (see Gandalf offering pardon to Saruman at Orthanc).

Eru gives the heroes opportunities to make hard choices; there's no such thing as 'the only solution' just like there's no such thing as 'random coincidence'.

And, remember, we're not saying that killing the guard is evil. Shadow points are not Evil points. They are 'I've seen terrible things and the Shire is no longer for me, Sam' points.