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Aeglosdir wrote:

Glorelendil wrote:Not quite sure how you get to that conclusion

Right, that was just an aside. It meant no more than this though: if a PC was too stupid to ever reflect on or query his own actions, then doubt would never touch him and he would be free from Shadow. Sancta simplicitas.

I think you're describing an amoral person, not a stupid one. A stupid person might come to different conclusions than a highly intelligent one, but if anything I think the highly intelligent one would be more likely to rationalize his actions.

Glorelendil wrote:if anything I think the highly intelligent one would be more likely to rationalize his actions.

And, if he is wise, more likely to doubt that he did the right thing.

I'm no longer sure what we're disagreeing about

Not disagreeing! Discussing.

I stand corrected!

Speaking of simple-minded beings: "[Sauron's] cynicism, which (sincerely) regarded the motives of Manwë as precisely the same as his own, seemed fully justified in Saruman. Gandalf he did not understand. But certainly [Sauron] had already become evil, and therefore stupid, enough to imagine that [Gandalf's] different behaviour was due simply to weaker intelligence and lack of firm masterful purpose."

BTW the Elves remember that Manwë sent his herald, Eönwë.

My bad. Still, Eonwe is almost as good for 'controlling legal authority.'

Actually, I have to say it's the reverse. Because a high wisdom character is likely to blow off the corruption test like it's nothing.

Elrond's packing Wisdom 6, for example. He smirks at those measly TN 14 corruption tests the brand new PC cringes in fear of. Thus, Elrond (or Glorfindel) could assassinate the orc, while the brand new PC could not. Presumably the Wisdom 6 big shot knows all about the War of Wrath and thus feels no guilt.

So it's actually the idiot brand new PC who thinks those poor orcs might be saved, while the Wise know better.

Angelalex242 wrote:... a high wisdom character is likely to blow off the corruption test like it's nothing. ... Thus, Elrond (or Glorfindel) could assassinate the orc, while the brand new PC could not. Presumably the Wisdom 6 big shot knows all about the War of Wrath and thus feels no guilt.

Misdeeds aren't subject to Corruption Tests so what you're saying here is wrong as no dice rolling for a test is involved. It's the task of each LM to decide what constitutes a misdeed, using the RAW as a guideline and what his view of the cosmology is.

Rich H wrote:

Angelalex242 wrote:... a high wisdom character is likely to blow off the corruption test like it's nothing. ... Thus, Elrond (or Glorfindel) could assassinate the orc, while the brand new PC could not. Presumably the Wisdom 6 big shot knows all about the War of Wrath and thus feels no guilt.

Misdeeds aren't subject to Corruption Tests so what you're saying here is wrong as no dice rolling for a test is involved. It's the task of each LM to decide what constitutes a misdeed, using the RAW as a guideline and what his view of the cosmology is.

And also his/her view of what sort of campaign it is. A story of weak but brave people doing great things, despite no hope for themselves, because it is the right thing to do? Or a rollicking adventure of slaying bad guys and stealing their loot?

Glorelendil wrote:And also his/her view of what sort of campaign it is. A story of weak but brave people doing great things, despite no hope for themselves, because it is the right thing to do? Or a rollicking adventure of slaying bad guys and stealing their loot?

Absolutely!

Right. My argument, of the cosmology, is that according to the best example anyone has (War of Wrath), the Valar and their agents took no prisoners. So, it isn't in fact a misdeed to to stab the orc from behind.

Even if my stance on this is quite clear ill say this.

Just because someone is Evil it doesnt mean he is stupid. There might be other things missing in an individual if he acts in a inhuman way. Being stupid is just one of the possibilities.

But, having said that, i feel that in Tolkiens world, the orcs are beings of and from the shadow. And therefore they are acting in the ways of the shadow, whether they want to or simply because they are selfish indviduals. They are part of the discord in the world.

Either way, and honorable character should not be slitting throats left right and center just becasue the people he slits throats from is evil. It is totally possible to BECOME a being of evil if one does evil things in the name of goodness. ABSOLUTELY.