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who said the valar didnt get shadow points for doing that.... ?

Angelalex242 wrote:Right. My argument, of the cosmology, is that according to the best example anyone has (War of Wrath), the Valar and their agents took no prisoners. So, it isn't in fact a misdeed to to stab the orc from behind.

It's one thing to destroy and kill the enemy in the heat of battle. To premeditate a killing in cold blood is murder and orc-work. Those who follow that path will become more like orcs in their outlook: taking life is easy, the means justifies the end, the strong deserve more than the weak. This is the path of shadow and players taking their character down that road ought to expect an accumulation of shadow points.

Regarding the Valar action as a standard of moral, I disagree completely, they are very susceptible to evil and shadow points. Do I have to remind anyone of Morgoth? He had free will, and chose to be n pain in the butt.

On another note, one thing I love to do when players have to do something is using trackers. Trackers are well know in RPGs, but Warhammer 3rd perfected them to me, and I stole this game concept to all other RPGs I play.

So, in you case I would use a tracker, an alarm tracker. The objective is getting a prisoner without getting noticed, I would place a nine level tracker, with special trackers on 3rd, 6th and 9th trackers. These special trackers will symbolize a new level of alarm from orcs, and they might trigger side effects, special encounters or increase their hunt (if you are using this optional rule). If the tracker ever reaches 9, they have been found and must fight their way out.
Great success might decrease their level of alarm, and also might play out some interesting game mechanics. For example, let’s say they find the drunken orc and they have the following option: be successful on a stealth check and not raise the alarm or kill the orc, decreasing the alarm level, but gaining shadow points. In this way, killing the orc will still be orc-like behavior but he will get an advantage for doing so mechanically.
I love to think about ways that mechanics might make players mora engaged with the story through them.

One of them screwed up, yes. If you can point to an example of a Vala not not named Morgoth screwing up, show me.

aule when he created the dwarves.

Ehhhh. Iffy. Eru apparently was okay with that, and wove them into his creation. And the existence of dwarves turned out to be a very good thing.

"But in this 'mythology' all the 'angelic' powers concerned with this world were capable of many degrees of error and failing between the absolute Satanic rebellion and evil of Morgoth and his satellite Sauron, and the fainéance of some of the other higher powers or 'gods'."

That should be clear enough.

Ilúvatar wasn't "okay with it." Aulë sinned, and Ilúvatar was pissed. But he forgave Aulë when Aulë repented.

The Valar screw up a LOT. But they don't often make moral errors, though they're not immune to them. Their behavior cannot be held up as a standard of perfection.

its clear, but remember every Vala is just an extension and part of iluvatar himself. So with Tolkienesque explanations, one gets nowhere as per logic. He just wasnt that good on logics. Its very appaerent.