Kill that guard before he rises the alarm

[Feanor]

Aule did what abraham ( or was it isak ? in any case i know its in the bible too ) did. He was prepared to kill the one thing most beloved to him in order to repent in front of his god. Clear shadow case if you ask me.

He did it out of love though, and the argument would be to conflict my previous thought that that would be ok.

im not saying anything is right or wrong really. In the grey areas and there are alot to think about, it isnt easy and clear cut as to what would happen and how it would effect things.

[Aeglosdir]

its clear, but remember every Vala is just an extension and part of iluvatar himself. So with Tolkienesque explanations, one gets nowhere as per logic. He just wasnt that good on logics. Its very appaerent.

Oh is that it?

[Otaku-sempai]

Regarding the Valar action as a standard of moral, I disagree completely, they are very susceptible to evil and shadow points. Do I have to remind anyone of Morgoth? He had free will, and chose to be n pain in the butt.

Don't forget the many Ainur who sided with Melkor as well, such as the Maiar who became his Balrogs or were placed in the bodies of huge Wargs to be Sauron's Werewolves.

[Majestic]

Interesting discussion. Regarding the morality of killing , I believe there's something inherent in all humans that knows/understands that it's wrong to take a life. Not to say, for instance, I wouldn't shoot an intruder that broke into my home and tried to hurt my family, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't experience anguish for doing so.

In this game Shadow can result from a misdeed, or it can occur as a result of one doing something that haunts that person later.

I've heard that long ago, I believe WWI, young recruits had difficulty pointing their rifles at the enemy and firing. The concept was understood by them; many were probably even hunters who could shoot and kill game with no problem. But when it came time to take a human life, they would often hesitate, potentially losing their own life as a result. Nowadays, OTOH, most who join the military have grown up playing Call of Duty (or similar games) their whole lives. Now I hear they don't hesitate to point and shoot, without even thinking about it. To some degree they've been desensitized to the concept of ambushing their enemy. I would still bet that those young people, after the first time they've had to take a life, later reflect on the enormity of what they've done.

[Angelalex242]

Well...perhaps Aule did screw up.

But Illuvitar was perfectly happy to weave Aule's children, the dwarves, into his tapestry of creation thereafter, so he must've seen that particular 'screw up' coming, and wove them into the song of creation.

[Aeglosdir]

Looking at what wikipedia has to say on theodicy, I note the suggestion that 'theodicy is a modern discipline because deities in the ancient world were often imperfect'.

[Stormcrow]

But Illuvitar was perfectly happy to weave Aule's children, the dwarves, into his tapestry of creation thereafter, so he must've seen that particular 'screw up' coming, and wove them into the song of creation.

The Ainur made the song of creation, not Iluvatar. He gave them free will to sing as they chose, according to the gifts he gave them. It's a traditional Christian paradox: God is all-knowing, and man's destiny is pre-ordained, but men have free will anyway.

Iluvatar wasn't "perfectly happy." He was angry, but he forgave Aule because Aule was genuinely repentant. There's a big difference between forgiveness and being perfectly happy.

Notice that of all beings in Middle-earth, not counting the followers of Melkor, it's the disciples of Aule who are most likely to fail morally: the Noldor, the dwarves, Sauron, Saruman.

[Angelalex242]

...still, I believe Illuvitar had to actually breathe life into the dwarves. Aule made the 7 fathers, but he didn't have it in him to make them truly sentient beings. Illuvitar had to do that.

[Glorelendil]

I love these forums. In fewer than 10 pages we go from how to be a barrel-surfing commando-assassin to a theological discussion of whether creating the Dwarven fathers was a "good" or "bad" deed.

[Feanor]

all basic problems/discussions angles back to the gods and iluvatar themselves. Thats how we understand ( or not ) the reasons and effects of actions.