[Brothers to Bears] Underground

[Kurt]

Hi Elmoth,

Depends on your climate, but in Adelaide, not very commonly. In England, quite often there is no moon.

You're correct. I don't think that I see a "no moon" often here at all. Ok, that sentence was bizarre, but you get the meaning.

There could be a thousand and one reasons you can hide the moon, bad weather, behind a tall mountain, in the darkest parts of Mirkwood as some suggested. I just wouldn't really do it though. Well ... perhaps if I felt that the characters needed a solid challenge in the darkest parts of Mirkwood, other than that, if your in my game and outdoors at night you'd be able to see the moonlight.

As with all rules in the game, I think it would really be a Loremasters choice.

Cheers,
Kurt

[Elmoth]

That's the point. The actual flavor text refers to the moon, but the text of the RULES only mentions "night" as being a condition. You could rule that no visible moonlight at all (like in the underground case) could mean that it is not available, but you are substracting quite a bit from the virtue if you do that. I have never found myself facing that ability but I would need to consider it quietly before axing it.

Cheers,
Xavi

[Glorelendil]

Sorry, I didn't mean to accuse anybody of being a rule lawyer and had only skimmed to responses. I was just observing that there are two ways to go about interpreting the text, one by picking apart the language and the other by asking "What is in the spirit of the rest of the game?"

I do think that making the ability dependent on the phase of the moon does add complexity because you either have to keep track of the date and have a tool for converting that to phase, or have a rule for randomly determining the phase (and thus be open to objections..."Wait...I used this ability a week ago and it was a new moon, then, too!")

That's the point. The actual flavor text refers to the moon, but the text of the RULES only mentions "night" as being a condition.

Yeah, this.

[Kurt]

Again, I don't really have a problem with axing a virtue if the conditions are not right, particularly when it is unlikely. I wouldn't be keeping a track of the moon ... I'd be too busy thinking about herbs and elixirs haha j/k!

In all seriousness, I can imagine there will be some rare times that you won't be able to use a virtue. Again, I think that these will be rare cases. For me, the ability would require the character to see the moonlight at night, which would happen 99% of the time.

I'm more interested in the story than details like that and I am not the kind of Loremaster that has a "player vs loremaster" attitude. I do what is reasonable, in the best interest of the story and enables all people playing the game to have the most fun.

[Earendil]

Hi Earendil,

I read that as essentially being able to see and hear better at night than the average person when the moon is out. That is the way I would play it, if there is no moon, then no ability. If you can't see that argentine (of or resembling silver) glow, then your out of luck. How many times a year does a no moon occur, not too often?

Hi Kurt!

There is no moon at all once a lunar month, i.e. about 13 times a year. But there is also no moon in the sky when it's already set, or hasn't yet risen. And that's true a great deal of the time, even at night. Depending on the phase of the moon, the time of year, and how far north or south you are, the moon may set not long after the sun does, or it may rise shortly before the sun does.

For example, tonight in London, the sun sets at 3.56 pm, and the moon rises at 9.00 pm according to this website. So there's 5 hours between nightfall and the moon rising. That's not at all unusual.

(Tolkien knew this: when guiding Frodo and Sam, Gollum insists on travelling when neither the sun nor the moon are out.)

Now, obviously the intention of this Virtue is not that you should keep careful track of how long it applies each night! But if you assume it only applies when the moon is in the sky, that's the path you're going down. Unless you're simply going to arbitrarily decide that the moon is or isn't out every time a player wants to use it, and I don't think that's a good solution.

There was nothing about "at night" ... it said "the night speaks to you", there is a difference. The condition for the ability was in the first portion of the sentence, the result is in the second portion of the sentence. People can read that any way they want, I choose to read it as stated above.

The second paragraph, which gives the actual rules for how this Virtue works, is what I quoted. It does say "at night", and says nothing about the moon. And as I pointed out, the "condition" you're referring to actually says when the moon is high in the sky - so by your argument, it only applies when the moon is actually high up, not just when it's visible. How high? That's another arbitrary decision!

[Earendil]

I'd choose the latter, and rule that it always works at night, and in "night-like conditions" such as in the darker parts of Mirkwood, but not underground, which is not Beorn's purview.

I like this idea. You can say it's a sense of the Wild itself, and as such it doesn't apply indoors or underground.

[Kurt]

Hi Earendil,

That's fair enough ... I wouldn't keep track of those details. So if your outside and it's night, the moon would be out in my game

You just wouldn't get away with it going underground

Actually, now that you mention a few things that would make traveling north a problem. I'm thinking of Carn Dum ... nasty stuff. That would be a solid challenge! But I wouldn't do that to a player.

[Glorelendil]

Again, I don't really have a problem with axing a virtue if the conditions are not right, particularly when it is unlikely. I wouldn't be keeping a track of the moon ... I'd be too busy thinking about herbs and elixirs haha j/k!

In all seriousness, I can imagine there will be some rare times that you won't be able to use a virtue. Again, I think that these will be rare cases. For me, the ability would require the character to see the moonlight at night, which would happen 99% of the time.

Then (again in the spirit of the game) I would suggest only restricting its use when doing so ties into, and strengthens, the narrative. I.e., if the adventure includes an ill-feeling dark grey fog that blocks out the sun during the day and the moon and stars at night, then telling the Beorning he can't even use his special ability helps accentuate just how unnatural this fog is.

But I wouldn't rule that it's a new moon just because it would otherwise trivialize a carefully designed plot...if that's the risk then use a device (like the aforementioned fog) to both prevent the ability from being used and make the story richer.

This discussion reminds me of a debate that surfaces every now and then about counting arrows. Some argue that it's unrealistic to not track ammunition; others counter that narrative supersedes realism and (like Legolas) counting arrows should only happen when it's in deliberate support of the narrative.

A lot of RPGs are kind of all about fiddling with the details of the rules. Talent and feat trees, backpacks full of iron spikes and 10' poles, tactical flanking on grids, etc. This game tries to strip away as much of that as possible to focus on the storytelling.

[Kurt]

The second paragraph, which gives the actual rules for how this Virtue works, is what I quoted. It does say "at night"

Ah yes, I just went back and read that. You are correct, it does say that.

[Kurt]

This game tries to strip away as much of that as possible to focus on the storytelling

I agree, its why I chose to purchase the game. Storytelling for me is a much more enjoyable experience than a dungeon craw. This is why I am so hot on making sense of a lot of the non-combat skills. Although I am a veteran gamer, I'm still learning this game. This game is very flexible in the way that you can play it, which is awesome, but with the flexibility comes a little bit of work. In the end it's the Loremasters story to run how he/she chooses as long as the players are happy and everyone is having fun.

The reason why I go the "Must see moonlight" approach in this case is neither because I am looking for the detail, or that I am arguing the rules. For me, it's because it makes sense. I feel that having the moonlight there is an enabler for how the eye actually works, rather than how or where the moon happens to be positioned. It's about the moonlight and not the position or rotation of the moon. For me it's an "out and about in the woods" above ground ability.

Cheers,
Kurt