Stealth Attacks?

[Stormcrow]

And if the consequences are not so binary then there's not really a problem with resolving it as a normal combat, perhaps with some kind of bonus for successfully sneaking up, as discussed. Unless the heroes spend a lot of time sneaking around assassinating orcs so that this is a normal occurence, this event should be a tense scene, and I'd rather make it a sequence of actions/rolls than a simple one-roll resolution.

I prefer to see combat used as a culmination of circumstances that pits the party against the collected forces of the enemy. The way Arinbor described the set-up screams "obstacle" to me, not "combat." The orc guard is merely an obstacle in the path of the party sneaking around and obtaining their ends, and need not be elevated so.

I also prefer not to rely on game mechanics for creating tension, but to let the situation do that. A lone, unaware orc blocking the way, who COULD raise an alarm if alerted, isn't to me the height of tension while journeying through orc-tunnels.

Either way will work, depending on what you like. Arinborn asked for alternatives, and the scene seemed to fit perfectly as "Loremaster character as obstacle," so that was my answer.

Like Zed I find this sort of killing to be very un-heroic, so the last thing I'd want to do is enable it with a simple skill roll.

Often it is far easier to do something unheroic, which is why not everyone is a hero. In this game it is up to the player, not the Loremaster, to decide whether to act heroically.

[Falenthal]

In the case of attacking an unaware orc from behind, I'd typically consider it a kill-or-not-kill kind of situation, and treat it as per the rules for "Loremaster characters as obstacles." That is, just set a difficulty to slay the orc immediately. If the roll is failed, combat would then commence, or the orc would run and get help, or whatever.

Regarding the Shadow points gain, I agree with everyone else. This would not be considered in other games, but TOR is partially about this kind of moral things.

As for the mechanics, there's nothing in the RAW for this, so any option you choose that seems right and believable is correct.

I have the House Rule that Daggers and Short Swords have the Called Shot "Puncture", that forces a Protection test to avoid being Wounded.
In this case, I would have asked for a Battle or Stealth roll for Preliminary roll to Combat, as usual (only that I would have allowed Stealth in this case).
The extra dice (if any) could have been used to add an extra one to the first attack, that the Hobbit could have declared a Called Shot and described as "sneaking up from behind".
If hit with a 6, the attack would have forced a Protection test. If failed, the Orc would have died from the Wound in one hit.
Otherwise, as Glorelendil hinted, the Hobbit would have learned that no one is born a natural ninja in Middle-Earth.

[Glorelendil]

In this game it is up to the player, not the Loremaster, to decide whether to act heroically.

Was anybody claiming otherwise?

[Stormcrow]

Was anybody claiming otherwise?

You said you wouldn't want to enable unheroic killing by allowing it as a skill roll. This would be the Loremaster influencing the ability and/or desire of the players to engage in unheroic acts, rather than letting them choose this on their own.

[Glorelendil]

Was anybody claiming otherwise?

You said you wouldn't want to enable unheroic killing by allowing it as a skill roll. This would be the Loremaster influencing the ability and/or desire of the players to engage in unheroic acts, rather than letting them choose this on their own.

Oh, I see. I meant "enable" in the sense of "being an enabler". Not "making possible".

If a player wants to open a brothel in Lorien and start trafficking in Gondorian children I'm not going to say, "Ok, make a Persuade roll." Neither am I going to reduce assassination to a Stealth roll.

[aramis]

In the case of attacking an unaware orc from behind, I'd typically consider it a kill-or-not-kill kind of situation, and treat it as per the rules for "Loremaster characters as obstacles." That is, just set a difficulty to slay the orc immediately. If the roll is failed, combat would then commence, or the orc would run and get help, or whatever.

Regarding the Shadow points gain, I agree with everyone else. This would not be considered in other games, but TOR is partially about this kind of moral things.

Quite a number of games have morality mechanics, and those that do often engender this very issue as a problem with them by some players who don't quite get the idea of the game. (L5R, Pendragon, Bushidō, Force & Destiny, SWSE, WEG-SW (d6).

I wouldn't give it a shadow point unless no alternatives were considered.

I have the House Rule that Daggers and Short Swords have the Called Shot "Puncture", that forces a Protection test to avoid being Wounded.

Bow and Spears already do that... won't break much.

[Arinbor]

Thanks for all your input. As for the situation Stormcrow, there was a massive cavern on the other side of the doorway which was teaming with Orcs, so it was definitely an obstacle. Had he alerted the guard, or dispatched of him loudly then it was likely he was going to alert an entire host, with the other 4 party member waiting outside the caves for him lmao.
Im having a hard time convincing players that stealth killing things results in shadow as it is not heroic. I have had arguments such as "Bilbo killed the spiders while in stealth while using the ring" and "I'm sure elfs gank unaware orcs that intrude on elf lands in mirkwood".
I wholeheartedly agree that it is not a heroic or noble thing to do, and will be putting my foot down on it.

[Otaku-sempai]

I'm not sure that such stealth tactics that result in a "back-stab" killing need to result in the awarding of a point of Shadow, but I do think that it must at least be considered. There is the matter of (I hate to use the phrase, but...) situational ethics. However, aside from that, there is the question of whether such an action stains the soul of the character.

[Glorelendil]

Thanks for all your input. As for the situation Stormcrow, there was a massive cavern on the other side of the doorway which was teaming with Orcs, so it was definitely an obstacle. Had he alerted the guard, or dispatched of him loudly then it was likely he was going to alert an entire host, with the other 4 party member waiting outside the caves for him lmao.

I would recommend not putting your players in that position, where one bungle leads to a TPK. Unless (I hope?) you had something in mind where they can still escape by the skin of their teeth if the cavern gets alerted.

Im having a hard time convincing players that stealth killing things results in shadow as it is not heroic. I have had arguments such as "Bilbo killed the spiders while in stealth while using the ring" and "I'm sure elfs gank unaware orcs that intrude on elf lands in mirkwood".
I wholeheartedly agree that it is not a heroic or noble thing to do, and will be putting my foot down on it.

I agree with those who would allow a Corruption roll, rather than just making it automatic Shadow.

As for Bilbo killing the spiders...

While he was picking up stones, the spider had reached Bombur, and soon he would have been dead. At that moment Bilbo threw.

Not quite the same as killing an unsuspecting guard.

[Stormcrow]

Im having a hard time convincing players that stealth killing things results in shadow as it is not heroic.

Don't argue that it's not heroic, argue that remembering the act of slitting the throat of an unsuspecting being haunts the character's thoughts. How did it feel as it felt a hand grab it from behind? What was it thinking as the life fled from its body? Was it scared? Did it think of its mate? The character can't shake these thoughts. This is the difference between stabbing in the back and killing in open battle, and the source of shadow points.