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So the party I LM for just ran through the "Helm of Peace" in DoM. They rescued Ceawin from the wight, thus preventing him from becoming enthralled, but the book doesn't really seem to imply that the problem with the undead is solved. I know my players pretty well and I suspect that they are not going to let it go. So I am trying to think about the next session, and I wondered if any other LMs had run across this.

1. Is there any reason to believe the Helm appeases the undead? It doesn't seem so to me, but perhaps someone has an insight that I missed when reading through DoM.

2. Is there a way to appease the dead that fits Middle Earth (other than being the heir of the king to whom they swore an ancient oath)? If so what ideas have you used for this?

3. If there is no way for the men of the East Bight to appease the dead (because the disturbance is actually caused by Sauron at its root and more directly by the three Nazgul reoccupying Dol Guldur), how have you communicated this to the players via the story?

I have some thoughts, but I thought I'd see what the folks around here have done since I have some time before our next session.

Many times in future years (in Darkening), there will be references to what happened with your players during "Helm" (my players, like yours, saved Ceawin). In other words, it will say "If A, then this happens, but if B, then this" (referencing if you kept the Helm from being put on Ceawin).

My players moved on from there, after cleaning out a few Wights, and there hasn't been much in the way of major news out of Sunstead, though Ceawin recently came to Mountain Hall for the funeral of Ingomer.

My players also saved Ceawin but lost the helm to the barrow. They killed that particular wight. We've played on through the end of Darkening of Mirkwood and past it, and several times they've had to go back to the issue of the Undead in the Bight. One of the first (and most important) times was the plague events of Nine in the Hall, when they were up against Regenhere, the wight/king who had ruled Rhovanion in the past and whose barrow Ceawin was nearly taken in. I added that Regenhere had bowed to the power of Sauron rather than resist him, which was why he was undead. And also hinted that one of the Nine might have been a King of Rhovanion late in the Second Age, between the fall of Ost-in-Edhil and the Last Alliance. (After all, we have very little canon on what's going on east of the mountains in that period, other than Oropher is at Amon Lanc and the doors of Moria are shut. I've added the backstory that this king, who might or might not be Regenhere, broke faith with Oropher and didn't stand with him against Sauron. (Oropher of course was killed in the Last Alliance.) No Men remember this story today, but Thranduil absolutely remembers it, as do some of the older members of his court like Ormal. Our PCs got the story from Ormal, since one of the PCs is a wood elf who is learning lampwrighting.

Artaxastra wrote:My players also saved Ceawin but lost the helm to the barrow. They killed that particular wight. We've played on through the end of Darkening of Mirkwood and past it, and several times they've had to go back to the issue of the Undead in the Bight. One of the first (and most important) times was the plague events of Nine in the Hall, when they were up against Regenhere, the wight/king who had ruled Rhovanion in the past and whose barrow Ceawin was nearly taken in. I added that Regenhere had bowed to the power of Sauron rather than resist him, which was why he was undead. And also hinted that one of the Nine might have been a King of Rhovanion late in the Second Age, between the fall of Ost-in-Edhil and the Last Alliance. (After all, we have very little canon on what's going on east of the mountains in that period, other than Oropher is at Amon Lanc and the doors of Moria are shut. I've added the backstory that this king, who might or might not be Regenhere, broke faith with Oropher and didn't stand with him against Sauron. (Oropher of course was killed in the Last Alliance.) No Men remember this story today, but Thranduil absolutely remembers it, as do some of the older members of his court like Ormal. Our PCs got the story from Ormal, since one of the PCs is a wood elf who is learning lampwrighting.

That's an excellent backstory. This is pretty much what I was looking for; something to flesh out the story a bit. I had noticed the references back to Ceawin throughout DoM, but they mostly seemed to discuss how he himself was acting, not what was going on in the East Bight or whether the undead ever quieted down.

I'm glad it's useful, Summerhawk! My group has had a really good time with that plotline. And it prepared them well for the piles of undead in Ruins of the North!

That is indeed really good stuff, Artaxastra. Well done!

Sorry to be pedantic, but barrow-wights are not Mannish spirits:

In the days of Argeleb II the plague came into Eriador from the Southeast, and most of the people of Cardolan perished, especially in Minhiriath. The Hobbits and all other peoples suffered greatly, but the plague lessened as it passed northwards, and the northern parts of Arthedain were little affected. It was at this time that an end came of the Dunedain of Cardolan, and evil spirits out of Angmar and Rhudaur entered into the deserted mounds [of the Barrow Downs] and dwelt there.

Lord of he Rings Appendix, Eriador, Arnor, and the Heirs of Isildur

So a Barrow-wight is an evil spirit linked to a corpse entombed in a barrow. In fact is irrelevant if the the deceased was a perfectly honest man or not:

Some say that the mound in which the Ring-bearer was imprisoned had been the grave of the last prince of Cardolan, who fell in the war of 1409.

Lord of he Rings Appendix, Eriador, Arnor, and the Heirs of Isildur

So the Barrow-wight causing troubles to the Ring-bearer was quite likely using the body of a Cardolan Prince who died fighting against the Shadow.

And don't get me started about why the Oathbreakers and the Nazgûl should be considered exceptions...

Summerhawk wrote:
Is there a way to appease the dead that fits Middle Earth (other than being the heir of the king to whom they swore an ancient oath)? If so what ideas have you used for this?

Your real question then should be if there is a way to appease an evil spirit meddling in the "material" world (as we are talking about barrow-wights, there are another undead).

Short answer is no, they hate the living and they will do anything they can to lure them and kill them. There is a good reason why the Barrow Downs have ill reputation and people avoid them!.
Seeking communication with these evil spirits (disembodied or unaturally incarnated) is a corrupting act itself, against the natural laws of Arda:

“It is therefore a foolish and perilous thing, besides being a wrong deed forbidden justly by the appointed Rulers of Arda, if the Living seek to commune with the Unbodied, though the houseless may desire it, especially the most unworthy among them. For the Unbodied, wandering in the world, are those who at the least have refused the door of life and remain in regret and self-pity. Some are filled with bitterness, grievance, and envy. Some were enslaved by the Dark Lord and do his work still, though he himself is gone. They will not speak truth or wisdom. To call on them is folly. To attempt to master them and to make them servants of one own will is wickedness. Such practices are of Morgoth; and the necromancers are of the host of Sauron his servant.“

History of Middle-earth vol. X (Morgoth’s Ring), Of re-birth and other dooms of those that go to Mandos.

So Ceawin was opening himself to be possesed by seeking to please the wights making the helm offering to them.

However they have many weakneses. First and foremost, they cannot leave the barrow (maybe they can wander around it in the blackest nights), secondly sunlight destroys them (or at least breaks the link between the corpse and the spirit, forcing it to retreat to the Wraith World). And then, they seem to love gold, a substance rich in Morgoth's own power dispersed through Arda (that's why it makes people greedy and wars have been fought for it).

Maybe there is something about that helm making it alluring for them (made out of dragon gold, a gem from Smaug treasure on it...), something that makes the helm corrupting for the Free Peoples and all the more appealing for Wights and it can be used to set a trap or provoke them.

Only solution I see for Ceawin's problem is either moving away from the Wights or destroy them. That would probably involve the help of Gandalf or some other Istari or the assistance of a powerful Firstborn. Seeking the counsel of Elrond would be probably a very good idea too. Going further from canon, you may wantto let your players to set some magical ward, weakening the barrow-wights or putting them to slumber.

Was wondering when Arthadan was going to make an appearance.

Some day we're going to learn the real reason Arthadan wants us all to believe there's no such thing as Mannish spirits, and it makes my hair stand on end just thinking about.

Glorelendil wrote:Was wondering when Arthadan was going to make an appearance.

Some day we're going to learn the real reason Arthadan wants us all to believe there's no such thing as Mannish spirits, and it makes my hair stand on end just thinking about.

Hmmmmm.... indeed. :: shivers ::

— • — • — • — • — • — • — • — • — • — • — • — • — • — • — • — • —

The ultimate source of the evil spirits that we know as the Wood-wights would seem to be mostly academic, especially as they're rending your flesh and sending you into darkness.*

The adventure, as written, (and I'm running it right now, which is why I was reluctant to engage with the thread) seems to imply that if they can be defied then they will settle down. Of course, with everything that will happen, they will be riled up again. And I don't think they can be defeated (this is the Darkening, not the Lightening, after all)... your heroes could spend an entire Adventuring Phase destroying the wights, but there are always corpses in the woods (or ways of making new ones) for them to inhabit.

Gold (or other treasures) might appease them for a time, but eventually the strain will be too much and Sunstead will be no more. Or, instead, you can free the fetters of canon, and then whatever solution your heroes come up might work.

— • — • — • — • — • — • — • — • — • — • — • — • — • — • — • — • —

* Of course, in lots of genre fiction, being the person who does know the difference between the various versions of spirits, specters and ghosts (not to mention full torso free-floating apparitions) can be the key to solving the adventure.

zedturtle wrote:

Glorelendil wrote:Was wondering when Arthadan was going to make an appearance.

Some day we're going to learn the real reason Arthadan wants us all to believe there's no such thing as Mannish spirits, and it makes my hair stand on end just thinking about.

Hmmmmm.... indeed. :: shivers ::

One day we will inveil the secrets of the darkest art of the Enemy...Necromancy!

Meanwhile some food for thought:

In the days of Argeleb II the plague came into Eriador from the Southeast, and most of the people of Cardolan perished, especially in Minhiriath. The Hobbits and all other peoples suffered greatly, but the plague lessened as it passed northwards, and the northern parts of Arthedain were little affected. It was at this time that an end came of the Dunedain of Cardolan, and evil spirits out of Angmar and Rhudaur entered into the deserted mounds [of the Barrow Downs] and dwelt there.

Lord of he Rings Appendix, Eriador, Arnor, and the Heirs of Isildur

Please note the evil spirits did not come from the Void, from beyond the Circles of the World or some other strange place. They came from the most corrupted regions of Eriador, Angmar and Rhudaur (Rhudaur was the first dúnedain kingdom to fall).

It makes me wonder what were they doing there in the first place. We know the Hillmen of Rhudaur came from Angmar after the conquest and they built grim fortreses and used Sorcery. And in Angmar we can assume Sorcery was also openly used. I think they were attracted from the Wraith World to these places.

But then, many questions arise:

- Was the presence of evil spitits in Angmar and Rhudaur part of the plan pf the Witch King or somekind of side effect of using Sorcery? Surely his Mannish and Orcish servants wouldn't be very happy with these "roomies" (unless they were "unseen and unable to interact with the living" until summoned).

- Was the "infestation" of the Barrow Downs a plan conceived long before it happened or a genious plan made on the fly using available "resources"?

- And the last most interesting question from a gaming perspective, if the evil spitits were converging on Angmar and Rhudaur as part of the Witch-king plan, did he have in mind other uses for them, besides creating Barrow-wights?

The more interesting answer would be a rotund yes. But if we have no more recorded Undead, then what?

Something darker, something stronger, something which only the Wise would suspect and the dúnedain chronicles would not know about...

Traditionally sunlight destroys Undead, like Barrow-wights, or hinders them greatly, as it is the case with the powerful Nazgûl (again Oathbreaker ghosts are an exception, as they are not evil in nature).

So (and this is pure wild invention, but respecting what I know about the canon), I daresay the Witch-king may have had some possesed in his ranks!

Evil spirits linked to living bodies, able to withstand the sun. We have no example of how they would behave or be like, so this comes from my imagination with no canon basis.

I assume some spirits would be too consumed with hate and, if given bodies, they would go on a gory path of mindless destruction, unable to control their thirst for blood and maybe some other dark apetites. They would be of quite limited use for the Witch-king army because even he would have a hard time controlling them (but these spirits would happily accept to become Barrow-wights).
Now let's assume there are other spirits with more self-control, wouldn't they make a fine stock for creating the most trustworthy captains? I imagine them wicked and cruel beyong words, but extremely cunning, maybe able to sumon lesser spirits to create havoc among their enemies. Somewhat like the traditional version of the vampires without their weakneses and without turning into bats (but the blood-drinking kind of fits).

Sorry for the long post!