[Rohan Spoilers] The <<Blank>> of Nan Mordeleb

[DavetheLost]

If the Balrog were incorporeal then it couldn't hold a sword that makes a ringing clash, or that disintegrates into molten fragments.

Hmm? Hmm?

A Wizard did it!

The Hobbits had been smoking too much pipe weed. They made up the whole Balrog thing to cover up Pippin accidentally pushing Gandalf off the bridge.

[Arthadan]

The Balrog is corporeal, has say Gandalf when he describe his pursuit after the fall from the bridge of Khazad-Dum. Gandalf describe the body of the Balrog after falling in the water in the Deep (Sorry I can't find in english since I have read it in French ) as 'slimy' .

Nonetheless, the Balrog is as much from the spiritual world to the physical world. In a sense, it's a spirit who as formed a body, like all Maiar. And (for me) only weapon with 'Magical' properties are able to strike in the spiritual world.
Eowyn was a different things: for it was is fate to kill the Witch-King (sort of a 'Hand of the Maiar on the spot' ).

This the quote and it's quite interesting:

"Yet it has a bottom, beyond light and knowledge," said Gandalf. "Thither I came at last, to the uttermost
foundations of stone. He was with me still. His fire was quenched, but now he was a thing of slime, stronger than a strangling snake.

No flesh would turn to slime. I still think whatever lies under the flame is not a material body as we understand it, maybe something closer to a Nazgûl body when "incarnated", whatever they are made of. In fact Maiar bodies are nothing more an expression of their will (and those strong enough like Sauron can create a new body if needed).

The Hobbits had been smoking too much pipe weed. They made up the whole Balrog thing to cover up Pippin accidentally pushing Gandalf off the bridge.

And here we are, discussing the nature of some creature made up by some stoned Hobbits!

[Terisonen]

We can also view 'thing of slime' as a metaphor, it could be a corporeal body (whatever form it may be) who is "slimy'. Well, I imagine it's at everibody to made his idea of whatever it could be.

[Glorelendil]

Saruman was Maia and he (or his material form) was killed by a dagger (c.f. "Slings" thread) in the back, wielded by a normal man.

Sure, sure sure...we can hypothesize that he was somehow "fallen" and that left him vulnerable. But that's fine: we still have evidence that under some circumstances Maia can be defeated by normal men with normal weapons.

[bluejay]

Technically Saruman was one of the Istari, a Maia who was clothed in flesh and subject to the frailties of the flesh (I forget the exact quote). While I can't say for certain exactly what this means I do believe that the Istari were more conventionally 'incarnated' than other Maiar. By the time he was killed (whoops, spoiler!) he had also effectively been stripped of his divine power and cast from the order.

[Glorelendil]

Technically Saruman was one of the Istari, a Maia who was clothed in flesh and subject to the frailties of the flesh (I forget the exact quote). While I can't say for certain exactly what this means I do believe that the Istari were more conventionally 'incarnated' than other Maiar. By the time he was killed (whoops, spoiler!) he had also effectively been stripped of his divine power and cast from the order.

That's fine. Gandalf also at one point said "no weapon you hold could harm me" (I paraphrase) so clearly the in/vulnerabilities of Maia wax and wane.

Maybe a Balrog got cast out of his order. For smiling at a cute cat video or something.

EDIT: It all depends on whether one wants to choose the strictest interpretation to exclude additional Balrogs (or Mannish spirits, or whatever) or if you want to include them for the adventure possibilities. There is no "correct" or "incorrect" in most of these debates.

[bluejay]

You're absolutely right about that! Forgot that quote. I do think Tolkien is deliberately vague on the qualities of the Maiar and Istari.

Anyway either way I do hope to see that we get to see some form of lesser Balrog in Nan Mordeleb.

[DavetheLost]

Was it Gandalf the Grey or Gandalf the White who said that? The latter had considerably fewer constraints on displaying his power within Middle Earth.

[Glorelendil]

Was it Gandalf the Grey or Gandalf the White who said that? The latter had considerably fewer constraints on displaying his power within Middle Earth.

The White. But the point still stands.

Is it Balrog the Black? Or Balrog the Charcoal-Grey?

[Terisonen]

Saruman was Maia and he (or his material form) was killed by a dagger (c.f. "Slings" thread) in the back, wielded by a normal man.

Sure, sure sure...we can hypothesize that he was somehow "fallen" and that left him vulnerable. But that's fine: we still have evidence that under some circumstances Maia can be defeated by normal men with normal weapons.

His physical body was destroyed, but it seem's to me that an incorporeal form arise from his body, try to go to Aman, but was blown by a wind from the West.

His Fana was dead, but not his spirit... Who was banned from ever returning West.