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I think the term “turn” in the Fell Speed refers to rounds or is otherwise just a trivial difference. It wouldn’t make much sense to engage a hero and then disengage this hero to engage another hero, I think. So I read it Fell Speed as „creatures with this ability can choose which character to engage, regardless of the number of heroes and enemies, they can attack even heroes in the rearward stance, and can flee the fight automatically at the beginning of every round”. I’m also fine with changing the engagement on the creature’s turn, as opposed to the beginning of the round. It doesn’t actually change anything about how I read the rules.

Great Leap doesn’t say anything about engagement, so I assume engagement works just like usual. This could mean that a wolf is engaged to hero A, but could spend a point of Hate to attack hero B, but still is engaged to hero A. Or if the wolf wasn’t engaged at all, it wouldn’t be after using Great Leap. (Side note: If this makes absolutely sense to change the engagement, narratively, do it!)

So my point being: There is no such thing as “using one of these abilities only when unengaged.” Both abilities can be used anytime, doing exactly what the description states, but no more. The main difference is with Fell Speed, the engagement is actually changed and can be used at the beginning of every turn, while Great Leap doesn’t necessarily change the engagement (although if it makes sense to change it, change it!) and can only be used after spending hate.

The issue is that turn and round aren't used interchangeably. Round refers to a Combat Round when all characters on both sides have an opportunity to take an action. Turn is used to distinguish the time at wich a particular chracter takes their action. The two terms (at least in British English) aren't usually interchangeable in a ruleset although in regular speech they may be.

The lack of some definitions of various terms doesn't help in determining what is supposed to be going on during a Round or a turn.

I understand you. And I’m totally on your side. What I was trying to say was that the rule for Fell Speed would be (almost) the same if the term “round” would have been used instead of “turn”. But that wasn’t actually my point. If you enforce the rule at the beginning of the round or at the beginning of the turn will, in most cases, make no difference.

I did not try to say that “turn“ and “round” are generally usable interchangeably. I’m sorry if I caused confusion there.

But the main discussion was about the interaction of Fell Speed and Great Leap. You made a point that Great Leap is only usable when the creature is not engaged. I disagree. I summarised my view as such:

Marko wrote:There is no such thing as “using one of these abilities only when unengaged.” Both abilities can be used anytime, doing exactly what the description states, but no more. The main difference is with Fell Speed, the engagement is actually changed and can be used at the beginning of every turn, while Great Leap doesn’t necessarily change the engagement (although if it makes sense to change it, change it!) and can only be used after spending hate.

The way I have interpreted these two special abilities is this:

Fell Speed
A creature with this ability can always choose a hero to engage at the beginning of any round/turn (even when in inferior numbers), no matter what combat stance the hero has chosen (including Rearward), and it can choose to escape combat freely at the beginning of any round.

Great Leap
For the cost of one Hate point, a creature with this ability can attack any one hero on its turn, no matter what combat stance the hero has chosen (including Rearward). The creature disengages from any previous hero and engages the hero it attacks. This ability cannot be used to attack a companion that is already engaged with a full compliment of enemies.

Ok, so this is kind of an old topic, but I still would like to know what others have done with Great Leap as it relates to engagements.

My interpretation would be that Great Leap is also an ability that allows the adversary to break a current engagement to leap and attack a different target (even a hero in Rearward stance). If the hero was in Rearward, his defense TN would be 12 for the creature's attack. Because of this, the hero can now only choose a Close combat stance at the top of the round (either Forward, Open, or Defensive) because he is now engaged.

This points out the difference between engaged and unengaged heroes: Close combat stances (Forward, Open, Defensive) = engaged (must fight enemies engaged with until they are defeated or escape or leap away), Ranged combat stance (Rearward) = unengaged (can shoot at any eligible target).

Remember, engagements are initially chosen by either the players or the Loremaster at the beginning of combat, depending on how many heroes there are compared to enemies. If there are more enemies, the Loremaster chooses. If there are more heroes or an equal amount, the players choose. See page 174 of The One Ring hardback for a nifty chart concerning this.

In my games, this principle stays true throughout the combat. As long as the heroes are outnumbered, I choose their engagements. But as soon as there is an even number of combatants, they start to choose. Great Leap messes with this a bit...I like that.

Maybe that's enough of a difference? Great Leap is exactly like Fell Speed, except it has a cost, and the rest is fluff?

JamesRBrown,

I agree with your interpretation, and indeed have used this to show PC's how nasty Attercops can actually be, especially if attacking from ambush (and thus they have the initiative,not the PC's!)

In the combat example I can recall, the PC elf with the longbow was successfully surprised (along with the rest of the PC's), as per usual the PC chose Rearward stance, but I had one Attercop use Great Leap to attack him straightaway - the look on the player's face was priceless!!

This ability just underlines the importance in TOR combat of 1) winning initiative and 2)working together - the Fellowship that acts like a Fellowship will survive, those that don't won't.
The elf was able to go back into Rearward stance only with the aid of his Fellows allowing him to successfully escape being Engaged.

Robin S.

I'm all for a fan-guide to nasty tactics for all adversary types.

Elfcrusher wrote:I'm all for a fan-guide to nasty tactics for all adversary types.

That would be an interesting project! It would also highlight the game's awesome treatment of adversary Special abilities and the combat system in general, which I think is absolutely amazing. Forever, I played d20 type games, then I got into Savage Worlds and loved that, but with TOR, you've got combat stances, combat tasks, and a great dice mechanic. And, they are simple enough to remember without needing a huge chart of feats or talents. The Loremaster's screen includes a summary of the adversary Special abilities, which is very nice.

In order to make such a guide, you would really need to mine Tales from Wilderland for additional ideas on enemy tactics, which are written specifically for those scenarios.

... The supplement could even have new Adversary Abilities included in it.