"Good, good. Let the hate flow through you..."

[Oskar]

In some games, the LM can reward the player with game-tokens in exchange for making/forcing the character commit evil acts. In this way - the player can easier allow their character to temporarily be a NPC or accept that things quickly turn to the worse. Short Term bonus for Long Term penalty- kind of deal.

I'm concidering letting the characters use their shadow to some benefit. This game broach this subject with the "Stiff Neck of the Dwarf"-perk, that adds the shadow-points to the Dwarf Common-Skill roll under certain situations. But would like to expand on this narrative/trope.

What I am suggesting is to:
Letting the hero use their inner shadow/darkness to solve a crisis. Game-mechanically using their shadow-points to some kind of advantage, but afterwards gaining additional shadow-points.

I like the idea of that token-economy an the more than one way to look at shadow-points. As of now, it only bad and should be avoided. My approach to good/bad is that it is not black and white but quite complex. Tolkien seem to have the black/white-approach and the game is true to this,, but what do you guys think?

Is it a good idea to let the Heroes resolve crises with a "Dark Side-approach"? Gaining in power as they come closer to the shadow, and that they can gamble to do this, and not just see it as a mechanical penalty for certain deeds? -both long and short term.

What are your thoughts on this?
Would it add value or miss the point?

[doctheweasel]

As a game mechanic, it could work well and add some interesting moments in play.

As a device to reinforce Tolkien's vision for Middle Earth, I'm not sure that it fits in.

I suppose it all depends on what you are looking for in your game. I wouldn't use it, personally, because my group values The One Ring's adherence to the feel of the books (otherwise, we'd just play another fantasy game). If it works for your table, though, then go for it.

[MrNidnan]

As a game mechanic, it could work well and add some interesting moments in play.

As a device to reinforce Tolkien's vision for Middle Earth, I'm not sure that it fits in.

I suppose it all depends on what you are looking for in your game. I wouldn't use it, personally, because my group values The One Ring's adherence to the feel of the books (otherwise, we'd just play another fantasy game). If it works for your table, though, then go for it.

I agree with that. Seems interesting idea but I think about it twice and I feel reward shadow is going agaisnt the world. Hope is a key point and is totally the opposite. At least if you play with good chars.

But I have two concerns.

1) Don't think players need more tools to overcome difficulties. Hope should be enough, and experienced (grown-up) PCs don't even need that.
2) Although in Tolkien world there's some gray morale chars, that ones end up falling rapidly to the shadow even if they resist they fell apart and don't fit well in the community and the rest of the people. Interaction should reflect that.

ALso if you plan to do this I do not allow players remove shadwo as easily as it was now (if they have office). Maybe adding a limit of shadow points removable. And maybe community hope should be affected and PCs that has focus on you... as he failed to prevent you to fall into the shadow...
Complex change that can end up transforming everything.

[Oskar]

Okay, what you guys are saying is that it would seriously affect interaction in the group as one or several of the heroes decent into darkness. So it should not be offered as a default option to the hope points, but as something that has serious impact on the game.

I think I will out-of-character/play ask players if any one of them would like to explore their characters dark side.
In the new group, the Dwarf is grim and fierce, easy to anger and slow to forgive. He might bite.

The other game-group (troubled teens at once-a-month-camp) really don't like the shadow-point-penalties involved with lying, manipulating and trying to dominate the will of others. They are likely to shoot arrows first and ask later. They have asked to be a more villain-like than hero-like company.

I like the concept of the treacherous road to power. But that's just because I like that kind of intrigue. I will prepare, and let the players decide. (I see the setting of the Middle Earth as a work in progress-project, where my sense of fun as more important that the True-to-Tolkien-playstyle.) Each to his/her own.

[PipeSmoker]

I've been pondering something similar for quite a long time for my games and had some brainstorming with a couple of the "mastering-oriented" of my players...
Also have dabbled in some sort of Star Wars total conversion for this marvellous rules system, but in the end dropped both options because Middle Earth and TOR were so much fun "as they are" (I could not ask for something better!!!). But there's another crucial reason...

So it should not be offered as a default option to the hope points, but as something that has serious impact on the game.

I felt, in the end, there's no need for a rule covering descent into darkness, it's already there! We got all the shadow degeneration process covered.
Instead of giving a numerical bonus while carrying out tests and tasks I saw more fitting confronting heroes with choices and situations "hard way vs easy way" style.
IE. last session my heroes, after a fight with some trolls and goblins which got them fairly beaten, had to decide between 1) trying to catch up with their guide which was not returning from a scouting trip or 2) resting in the troll cave and catch their breath (endurance recovery)... I let them discuss (and some Corruption tests were rolled), at last they decided to go and seek for the missing guide (which was found in deep troubles and saved).

I add I don't think Tolkien presents that "black or white" approach I often read of around here, quite the opposite! I feel MrNidnan's signature sheds some light on that matter, at least that's how I feel about it...
Hope this helps,
Cheers!!!

[jamesrbrown]

Oskar, what you are suggesting sounds like it might work (even while respecting the Professor's views) if you treat the expenditure of Hope points differently during a misdeed. Here's how this could work:

Normal Rules: When a player-hero chooses to perform a misdeed, he will automatically gain a number of Shadow points according to the severity of the action he has taken (without the benefit of a Corruption roll). While committing a misdeed, he can choose to spend Hope points to succeed at actions as usual. Additional Rule: If he does this, however, he will gain 1 additional Shadow point for every point of Hope spent. So, if he spends a point of Hope to successfully torture someone, he will gain 6 Shadow points instead of 5. It's as if his Hope point were really a Hate point giving him extra fuel to accomplish his deed.

[PipeSmoker]

Good call, Rev Brown, elegantly conceived.
But isn't it redundant?

I think the whole idea behind this topic of "tapping power from the dark side" is, plus it devalues the narrative process inside the game.
Obtaining game-tokens/bonuses in exchange for shadow points is just that, an exchange whose nature lies in numbers. Players will quickly begin to consider pros and cons from a detatched and arid perspective: "I'll gain a shadow point, but I'll get a big bonus for my crucial test". Sounds gross.

I might well be wrong, but is anywhere implied in Tolkien's writings that an individual can "tap power from the dark side" (a la Sith, Star Wars style)?
Resorting to "the dark side" (ie. accepting Sauron's lures) is a matter with lots of shades and subtle implications (better away from numbers), that leads to dire consequences, even if it solves matters.
Isn't solving matters at a cost already covered by well placed Corruption tests?

Heroes should become corrupt because they CHOOSE to forget about duty, to let down their friends, to ravish in vices (which is shadow gain without even a Corruption test) AND when confronted with the STRUGGLE of hard deeds taken for a (supposedly) greater good (which is what Corruption tests are about).

So I suggest to Oskar to focus more on the story and not to "loose" time on a new rule. Keep your players on a moral leash, point out to them what is the result of their course of action, for bad and for good.
Make them feel responsible for their fates, that should be more fun, I think.

[poosticks7]

Ah the allure of the anti-hero.

the players should be rewarded for TAKING THE HARD PATH not the easy one.

This is not cyber-punk this Middle-Earth. The PCs are the ones that fight for hope of a better future. Even Boromir figured that out before the end. They are heroes not mercs. Champions of the Free folk not street samurai or wanna be sith.

There is a place for darkness and sorrow in Tolkien's world - Boromir, Denethor, Turin and Feanor are all examples of tragic figures that fall from grace. Weave it into the story naturally not with extra game machanics.

[jamesrbrown]

Good call, Rev Brown, elegantly conceived.
But isn't it redundant?

I don't think my additional rule is redundant. The rules do not forbid a player-hero from performing a misdeed, nor do they prevent a hero from spending a point of Hope while in the act. I find the latter a little awkward. For example, a player-hero swinging his sword to kill a helpless creature rolls too low and then spends Hope to succeed. This is within the rules, but narratively, does that make sense? Not to me. How can he be drawing on the power of hope to perform such an evil act? One could argue to simply deny a player-hero the ability to spend Hope during a misdeed, but I find it more interesting to allow the hero to manifest that energy (the core rules describes Hope as "spiritual vigour" or "spiritual fortitude and positivity") as the power of Hate instead, and impose a penalty on the player-hero who draws on this negative energy. I think imposing 1 extra Shadow point for every Hope point spent during a misdeed is balanced and makes sense.

In game, I am imagining a player-hero attempting to use a violent threat (1 Shadow gain) to manipulate another. If he fails his roll of Awe, he can still spend a point of Hope to add his basic Body score. With my additional rule, this means he will also gain an extra point of Shadow (a total of 2 Shadow gain for this misdeed). Heroes that draw on this kind of negative energy to accomplish misdeeds will become spiritually spent much faster. They are spending a point of Hope and they are gaining an extra Shadow point at the same time.

[Oskar]

I think I started in the wrong end. I asked about how to game-mechanically introduce/expand on/ a concept into the game. What I really wanted to address was the fact that "With great power comes great responsibility".

The heroes (that live long enough) will rise above their peers, slay beasts that the common folk dream nightmares about. You give something, want something back. You bleed, sweat, toil. Comrades die. And for what?
An ungrateful Master of the City of Esgaroth asking why they did not come home with better news, people giving them scorn etc. Instead of cheering, they frighten people.

Just take the average soldier from Sweden returning from a foreign-trip in our world. One of the things they complain about is how ungrateful the people at home are for their sacrifice. (Perhaps rightly so?) How misunderstood they are as a group and how civilians only focus on the mistakes of reckless individuals and take the good deeds for granted. That, is an example of the psychology of power. Feeling entitled.
(Further on, the police-force of Sweden have both stand up people and rotten eggs, like everywhere. Some hide behind their badge do to shitty things but most are always doing the right thing. Politicians in a position to abuse their power quite often do this, then they are sorrow and regretful when their deeds come to light.)

I like the fact that the TOR-system so clearly address the fact that with every quest for ________[add motivation] comes a lure of corruption. But how does it play out?

I'm not talking game-mechanically. Thus: not just penalizing lying, theft, wanton murder, dominating the will of others with shadow-points but how does the "Psychology of Corruption" come into play?

This is the Hero's Journey, in Joseph Campbell-ian terms. Down into the "Belly of the Beast" to resolve issues and come back victorious, broken&corrupted or not at all - perishing on the way. For me as both a player and as a LM, this in my hook. The heroes risk life&limb or worse - their sanity and/or moral compass along the way.


Perhaps more skilled LMs see how to use the core-rules to let this come into play?