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zedturtle wrote:

Middle-earth Way wrote:Bree-folk, Riders of Rohan, Dwarves of the Blue Mountain, the Elves of Lorien and People of Gondor.

thanks!

Otaku-sempai wrote:To Middle-earth Way: I think that to the Folk of north-western Middle-earth, the Men of the distant East and South are only known as Easterlings and Haradrim (or Southrons) except for those few tribes or folk that they have had more contact with: the Wainriders; Variags; Balchoth; etc. Anyone more distant should probably be referred to by their own names for themselves in their own language (whatever that may be). Have fun with that!

I would agree in regard to the ordinary folk of the West-lands, the words "Easterling" and "Haradrim/Southron" (or "Swerting") covers it. Like "Asians" and "Africans" in the eyes of the 900-AD-era common folk of Byzantine Empire.

However, the *loremasters* of Gondor, and of the Elves would have as much detail as the Byzantine and Carolingian loremasters had in 900 AD. There are travellers' tales and chronicles from that time which describe Africa and (near) Asia, such as Nestor's Chronicles, the Getica, the Voyage of Ohthere, and the Alexander Romance. Though not till Marco Polo does the Far East really enter into Western geographical consciousness. And they are a beautiful melange of fact and fancy.

Aragorn himself has been throughout Harad and Rhun:

Aragorn "went alone far into the East and deep into the South, exploring the hearts of Men, both evil and good, and uncovering the plots and devices of the servants of Sauron."

Saruman lived in Rhun for over a thousand years, before he returned west and settled in Orthanc. Presumably there are some high civilizations there...he's not one to humbly wander in the wilderness among barbarian tribes. I'd say that Saruman was based in the "Persian Empire" of Middle-earth (the source of "magic"/Magi in our history), with the Blue Wizards centered in "India" and "China."

Given the aesthetic preferences of C7, as demonstrated in TOR and their other games, I suspect an encyclopedic guide to every possible race/culture is not part of the plan. Their style is to take small chunks at a time and lovingly craft them into pieces that complement and contrast, not to enumerate every possible option with the result that there's little actual differentiation. Weapon lists, for example.

Which is one of the great things about C7 games, imo.

@Middle-Earth Way: Are you "Polyhedral_Columbia" from enworld, perchance?

Glorelendil wrote:Given the aesthetic preferences of C7, as demonstrated in TOR and their other games, I suspect an encyclopedic guide to every possible race/culture is not part of the plan. Their style is to take small chunks at a time and lovingly craft them into pieces that complement and contrast, not to enumerate every possible option with the result that there's little actual differentiation. Weapon lists, for example.

Which is one of the great things about C7 games, imo.

I'm sure C7 will do a great job either way. However, the D&D book is an opportunity to burst into a vastly wider audience via a different business model. TOR appears to be aimed at an artisanal indie-game audience who are happy to follow along with C7 as long-term subscribers to a multi-year product line. Which is fine and good.

In contrast, the ME-D&D book is a chance to bring large segments of the D&D players network to Middle-earth in one fell swoop. Might as well cover all the countries on the canonical LotR map of the West-lands in one book. "Lovingly crafted" doesn't have to be bite-sized..it can be big, comprehensive, and loving crafted. This would be an enthusiasm-evoking sourcebook. Not a piece-meal regional guide, but a true Worldbook.

Then...from that enthusiastic basis, re-stat/re-package the existing TOR books for D&D (Wilderland, Rivendell and the Lone-lands, Erebor). Then go from there...Gondor, Mordor, The Shire, Forodwaith, Harad, Rhun, Numenor* and the Second Age, Beleriand* and the First Age, Aman*, and the other lands from over Sea**. The country/region sourcebooks are the place to go into lovingly crafted detail, and to invent entirely new cultures which aren't in JRRT's books.

*Numenor, Beleriand, and Aman are all mentioned by name in the LotR, so they can be included in C7's game. However, given the licensing restrictions, C7 would need to make their own backstory and maps which are not directly based on JRRT's. This would be a sort of "alternatve Middle-earth" which is based entirely on The Hobbit and LotR, without directly referencing The Silmarillion and other JRRT sources.

The New Lands (America) and Dark Land/South-land (Lemuria/Australia) aren't mentioned in the LotR, though America is implied in the introductory essay "On Pipe-weed":

"All the same, observations that I have made on my own many journeys south have convinced me that the [tobacco] weed itself is not native to our parts of the world, but came northward from the lower Anduin, whither it was, I suspect, originally brought over Sea by the Men of Westernesse."

@Middle-Earth Way: Are you "Polyhedral_Columbia" from enworld, perchance?

Yep thats me. Is that a boon or a bane?

Middle-earth Way wrote: In contrast, the ME-D&D book is a chance to bring large segments of the D&D players network to Middle-earth in one fell swoop. Might as well cover all the countries on the canonical LotR map of the West-lands in one book.

How do you figure? How many D&D fans (or even Tolkien fans?) have even heard of more than 1 in 10 of those "canonical people"?

I just can't see that many people be drawn to a game built around obscure minutiae. Every page of content comes with an opportunity cost, and personally I'd rather C7 not spend time/money/column inches on that obscure minutiae.

EDIT: Also, I for one don't count every false start, altered detail, and random thought ever written by JRRT to be "canon".

Yeah I think you've done some amazing research here but i have to agree with Glorelendil that previous drafts don't count as canonical with me. I absolutely get the idea of using them for inspiration if they fit with the vibe (much like some of the published C7 TOR books are inspired by William Morris material) but some of this just doesn't gel so much for me.

Again massive respect for the research you've done and the effort you've put in!! Kudos to you!

Glorelendil wrote:

Middle-earth Way wrote:Might as well cover all the countries on the canonical LotR map of the West-lands in one book.

How do you figure? How many D&D fans (or even Tolkien fans?) have even heard of more than 1 in 10 of those "canonical people"?

There's really two distinct thrusts of this thread:
1) Including in the core book a distinct character package for each of the Tolkienian-mentioned peoples, even the most obscure one-liners (Hunter-folk, Fisher-folk, Dorwinion, etc.).
2) Covering all of the countries from the LotR map in the core book.

I realize that #1 is asking a lot.

But #2 might be a deal-breaker for me. I am interested in starting a ME-D&D campaign, but maybe not if the core book doesn't even cover all of Eriador, Rhovanion, the South of the West-lands, Forochel, Hither Rhun, and Near Harad. I'm simply not interested in buying several $40 books just to be able to cover JRRT's basic map of the West-lands.

I just can't see that many people be drawn to a game built around obscure minutiae.

what the...?! It's Tolkien. It's Middle-earth. Obscure minutae is Tolkien's middle name. (Okay, I'm wrong...it's Ronald or Reuel...how come British people can have four names?)

If I wanted to play in a watered-down, vague rendition of Middle-earth, I'd buy the Forgotten Realms.

A good Middle-earth RPG will need to *educate* people, so that it's not just a generic fantasy blob.

EDIT: Also, I for one don't count every false start, altered detail, and random thought ever written by JRRT to be "canon".

I realize that the word "canon" is a red flag. I need some word to describe "peoples who are explicitly mentioned by JRRT, or closely implied by JRRT, and which are in the published texts, or in the unpublished drafts and manuscripts." The word "Tolkienian" could serve instead.

On the other hand, there are only so many words and indications from JRRT. Might as well honor each tidbit and mine them for all they're worth.

Middle-earth Way wrote:

I am interested in starting a ME-D&D campaign, but maybe not if the core book doesn't even cover all of Eriador, Rhovanion, the South of the West-lands, Forochel, Hither Rhun, and Near Harad. I'm simply not interested in buying several $40 books just to be able to cover JRRT's basic map of the West-lands.

(snip)

If I wanted to play in a watered-down, vague rendition of Middle-earth, I'd buy the Forgotten Realms.

A good Middle-earth RPG will need to *educate* people, so that it's not just a generic fantasy blob.

I see those things as being contradictory: a single $40 book that also has rules and adversaries and artwork that tries to address each of those lands is going to end up having a very short entry for each. Even if you separated out the rules in a separate book, it's still not very many column inches per land. The result? "a watered-down, vague rendition of Middle-earth" that looks like a "generic fantasy blob" because there isn't room to go into interesting detail on each one.

And I don't mean "interesting detail" in the sense of Tolkien's minutiae. I mean the creation and description of interesting characters and places and plot hooks, with maps of the cities and other cool artwork.

In order to add in the colorful parts you're talking about more $40 books, except now the information for any one land is spread across several books.

I'd much rather have it organized by region. Yes, I'll be salivating to get my "The Sands of Far Harad" expansion supplement, but I'd rather wait for it than get a dry encyclopedia as the first release.

Middle-earth Way wrote: A good Middle-earth RPG will need to *educate* people, so that it's not just a generic fantasy blob.

I think the core of a problem is here.
I don't want a Middle-Earth RPG to educate me. There's already a lot of books on Middle-Earth (first of all Tolkien's books).
I want a Middle-Earth RPG to help me translating the Tolkien mood, the kind of adventures you can have in the Middle-Earth (and not in Faerun or Golarion), into a game. And I think Cubicle 7 made a stellar job with The One Ring. And I think they would have failed if they had tried to put everything in the core book.

Middle-earth Way wrote:But #2 might be a deal-breaker for me. I am interested in starting a ME-D&D campaign, but maybe not if the core book doesn't even cover all of Eriador, Rhovanion, the South of the West-lands, Forochel, Hither Rhun, and Near Harad. I'm simply not interested in buying several $40 books just to be able to cover JRRT's basic map of the West-lands.

I dunno. TOR clearly and blatantly fails to cover any more than a very small and specific set of areas, and, in my opinion, is a much better game for it. The depth of, and mechanical differentiation between, various Cultures allows for the game to do a lot of very neat stuff, as does the singular focus on a specific area. It's a game that strongly benefits from it's extremely narrow focus, since that enables it to go really in depth into the area it focuses on.

Now, the people at Cubicle 7 certainly don't have to follow that pattern for 5E, and indeed may well choose not to. But I'd certainly be willing to give the game a shot if it does follow the pattern.