The Halls of the Dwarves (in the Blue Mountains)

[Otaku-sempai]

Does anyone else wish to speculate with me about the Halls of the Dwarves located in the northern Blue Mountains? The site is revealed in the upcoming Journeys & Maps on the maps of Eriador and is located at the source of the Lesser Lhûn some 160 miles from the Grey Havens.

I do not think that these are the former Halls of Thorin Oakenshield, which I believe were probably much nearer to the Havens. Instead, I guess that the Halls of the Dwarves (Naugroth in Sindarin; Khazad-gundu in Khuzdul) might be a colony founded early in the Second Age primarily by survivors of the Dwarf-city of Nogrod after it and its sister-city of Belegost were destroyed in the War of Wrath. Most of the Naugrim displaced by the splitting of the Ered Luin migrated east to Khazad-dûm once it became clear that they would be unable to restore their former homes. However, some may have been unwilling to leave the Blue Mountains, choosing to start a new delving near the ruins of the old.

In addition, there ought to be several Dwarf-settlements in the southern Blue Mountains, not documented on the maps, that go back as far as the First Age. I wrote up one such city that I named Hargrod, located just south of the ridge that extends eastward into Eriador from the center of the southern Blue Mountains.

Do you think I'm wrong about the Halls of Thorin? Do you know something I don't? Please, share your thoughts and comments!

[Finrod Felagund]

Your thoughts on this seem reasonable to me. A couple of settlements together comprising a "Lordship" (not a kingdom) seems appropriate. Maybe 5-10,000 Dwarves in total? Oddly enough they would be one of the major powers in Eriador at the end of the Third Age.

Where my thoughts have differed from yours, is with your conception of Lindon overall. I've always thought it could be more "Elvish" and have more wonders than is generally imagined. Bearing in mind nobody outside of Elves have actually been there for a thousand years plus who would know what is actually there and what the landscape is like?

[Otaku-sempai]

The Halls of the Dwarves in the north of the Ered Luin seem fairly isolated. I would think that they would be pretty limited in terms of commerce, trading iron and steel implements for wool, furs, meat, fish, grain and wood. Merchants and traders might travel afar to deal with the Hobbits of the Shire, Bree-landers, maybe traveling as far as Dunland; however, there don't seem to be any good roads in the area to serve as trade routes. I don't think that these Dwarves would deal with the Elves of the Grey Havens, but perhaps I underestimate them.

I still like the idea that the Halls of Thorin might have become an embassy for the Dwarves of Erebor (assuming that they are distinct from the Halls mentioned above). One or more of the former companions of Thorin Oakenshield might even serve as the Ambassador-in-residence for a period of time.

Elves have left the lands of West Lune (incorrectly marked as East Lune on the maps in J&M). If anyone lives there now it would only be a few isolated homesteads and farmholds belonging to Men of Eriador descended from folk who fled from the armies of Angmar as well as transient hunters, trappers and fishermen--perhaps even some prospectors exploring old Dwarf-mines or panning in the streams and rivers.

Lindon might be more Elf-like but many, if not most, of the High Elves have already left Middle-earth by the last decades of the Third Age so I think that Forlindon and Harlindon would only be sparsely populated with the majority of the Elves concentrated at the Grey Havens.

[Stormcrow]

I think the "Halls of Thorin Oakendhield" are just the dwarvish equivalent of a mansion, not a whole city. Thorin's halls could very well be within the "Halls of the Dwarves" on the map.

[Otaku-sempai]

I think the "Halls of Thorin Oakendhield" are just the dwarvish equivalent of a mansion, not a whole city. Thorin's halls could very well be within the "Halls of the Dwarves" on the map.

That is possible. I do think that Tolkien intended Thorin's Halls to be a bit farther south, although his texts are a bit confusing:

So Thráin and Thorin with what remained of their following (among whom were Balin and Glóin) returned to Dunland, and soon afterwards they removed and wandered in Eriador, until at last they made a home in exile in the east of the Ered Luin beyond the Lune.

Thráin II and his son Thorin wander westwards. They settle in the South of Ered Luin beyond the Shire (2802).

Putting the two entries together, I do believe that the Halls of Thorin were in the northern Blue Mountains, but not very far from the Grey Havens.

[Finrod Felagund]

"The Halls of the Dwarves in the north of the Ered Luin seem fairly isolated. I would think that they would be pretty limited in terms of commerce, trading iron and steel implements for wool, furs, meat, fish, grain and wood. Merchants and traders might travel afar to deal with the Hobbits of the Shire, Bree-landers, maybe traveling as far as Dunland; however, there don't seem to be any good roads in the area to serve as trade routes. I don't think that these Dwarves would deal with the Elves of the Grey Havens, but perhaps I underestimate them."

After the death of Smaug the Blue Mountain Dwarves could use the East-West road to trade in what was the Wilderland. Even before that some limited trade might have taken place in Dunland and Rohan (using the old North-South road) which I envisage would both need the skills. Otherwise I agree with you.

"Lindon might be more Elf-like but many, if not most, of the High Elves have already left Middle-earth by the last decades of the Third Age so I think that Forlindon and Harlindon would only be sparsely populated with the majority of the Elves concentrated at the Grey Havens".

OK, here we go MERP-ish. The unpublished MERP gazetter for Lindon has a population of 27000 Elves in Lindon in TA 2951 (675 Noldor, 12150 Sindar, and 14175 Nandor). I think that's enough to build some interesting sites around. As a matter of fact, your view of Lindon is probably closer to canon but Tolkien wrote so little about it that we can probably argue it either way!

[Otaku-sempai]

After the death of Smaug the Blue Mountain Dwarves could use the East-West road to trade in what was the Wilderland. Even before that some limited trade might have taken place in Dunland and Rohan (using the old North-South road) which I envisage would both need the skills. Otherwise I agree with you.

Well, the Halls of the Dwarves are 160 miles from the Grey Havens where the Gulf can be crossed to reach the Great East Road. There may be places farther up the River Lhûn where it can be crossed, but they would still have to travel about the same distance to reach the Road. This is what I meant by the Halls being isolated by a lack of roads.

OK, here we go MERP-ish. The unpublished MERP gazetter for Lindon has a population of 27000 Elves in Lindon in TA 2951 (675 Noldor, 12150 Sindar, and 14175 Nandor). I think that's enough to build some interesting sites around. As a matter of fact, your view of Lindon is probably closer to canon but Tolkien wrote so little about it that we can probably argue it either way!

I don't think that we can rely on MERP for accurate population figures for Lindon. On the other hand, beyond the Grey Havens there are the harbors at Harlond and Forlond as well as any defensive fortifications that might date from the time of Gil-galad. 27,000 Elves is only roughly one tenth the estimated population of Buffalo, NY and just a little larger than the nearby community of Lockport, so it might not be unreasonably large.

By the way, what do you think of either the Bay of Thargelion or the Bay of Caranthir as a name for the large bay to the north of the Gulf of Lune, near the site of Mount Rerir? The forest on the west side of the Blue Mountains just south of Mount Dolmed could be the Taur-nu-Dolmed and the forest at the base of the southern Blue Mountains in Harlindon could be the Taur-na-Luin. I've been calling the river that empties into Forlond the Linduin (Singing River), but Vingelion (New Gelion) works as well. It could well be that the Elves just retained the name Gelion from before the ruin of Beleriand, but Tolkien never said. I just felt that keeping the same name was taking the easy way out.

[Finrod Felagund]

Well, the Halls of the Dwarves are 160 miles from the Grey Havens where the Gulf can be crossed to reach the Great East Road. There may be places farther up the River Lhûn where it can be crossed, but they would still have to travel about the same distance to reach the Road. This is what I meant by the Halls being isolated by a lack of roads.

Maybe. As you say, having the Dwarf mines in the far north is a bit off the beaten track for a trading community although they might need to be there if that's where the raw materials are. Maybe have some smaller mansions nearer Mithlond (the sort that might be left off by a cartographer) and then everyone is satisfied!

27,000 Elves is only roughly one tenth the estimated population of Buffalo, NY and just a little larger than the nearby community of Lockport, so it might not be unreasonably large.

No evidence one way or the other really. MERP had the number declining to 13000 or so by TA 3019 so a lot left just before the War of the Ring.

By the way, what do you think of either the Bay of Thargelion or the Bay of Caranthir .

I hate to say it but either looks fine to me. Do prefer Taur-na-Luin as singing woods seems appropriate. Linduin also works but it does lead to a lot of "Linds" being used, so maybe go for Gelion or Vingelion as you say.

[Otaku-sempai]

As you say, having the Dwarf mines in the far north is a bit off the beaten track for a trading community although they might need to be there if that's where the raw materials are. Maybe have some smaller mansions nearer Mithlond (the sort that might be left off by a cartographer) and then everyone is satisfied!

I agree that there were likely other, smaller communities of Dwarves in the northern range nearer to the Gulf of Lune. A few might have even served as waystations for travelers (Dwarvish travelers at least).

I hate to say it but either looks fine to me. Do prefer Taur-na-Luin as singing woods seems appropriate. Linduin also works but it does lead to a lot of "Linds" being used, so maybe go for Gelion or Vingelion as you say.

Actually, I believe that Taur-na-Luin would translate as the Blue Wood, not the Singing Wood (which would be more like Taur-na-Lindi). I haven't found a Sindarin root word for 'sing' but I'm guessing that it is pretty close to the Quenya 'lin-'.