Gods - Fate, Morality, Customs and Laws

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Kurt
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Re: Gods - Fate, Morality, Customs and Laws

Post by Kurt » Sun May 22, 2016 10:18 am

Deadmanwalking wrote:Orcs aren't a naturally occurring creature, they're corrupted. Something changed from something else. I'd expect, for symmetry, for their moral sense to be similarly corrupted rather than simply different. There's no evidence of them having any particular code of behavior not enforced through fear of those more powerful, and indeed quite a bit of them not having anything beyond that fear. I'd be inclined to say that the only Orc moral precept that seems appropriate is a sort of 'might makes right' philosophy where if you can take something (authority, wealth, land, whatever), you deserve to have it until someone else takes it.
Thanks, I like this. I thought this after my initial post and mentioned it in the third post in this thread. I like the way you explained it too :)

Otaku-sempai
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Re: Gods - Fate, Morality, Customs and Laws

Post by Otaku-sempai » Sun May 22, 2016 3:28 pm

In The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien, Letter 153 (To Peter Hastings (draft)) includes a footnote that gives a pretty good overview of religion in Middle-earth:
*There are no temples or 'churches' or fanes in this 'world' among 'good' peoples. They had little or no 'religion' in the sense of worship. For help they may call on a Vala (as Elbereth), as a Catholic might on a Saint, though no doubt knowing in theory as well as he that the power of a Vala was limited and derivative. But this is a 'primitive age'; and these folk may be said to view the Valar as children view their parents or immediate adult superiors, and though they know they are subjects of the King he does not live in their country nor have there any dwelling. I do not think the Hobbits practiced any form of worship or prayer (unless through exceptional contact with Elves). The Númenóreans (and others of that branch of Humanity, that fought against Morgoth, even if they elected to remain in Middle-earth and did not go to Númenor; such as the Rohirrim) were pure monotheists. But there was no temple in Númenor (until Sauron introduced the cult of Morgoth). The top of the Mountain, the Meneltarma or Pillar of Heaven, was dedicated to Eru, the One, and there at any time privately, and at certain times publicly, God was invoked, praised, and adored; an imitation of the Valar and the Mountain of Aman. But Númenor fell and was destroyed and the Mountain engulfed, and there was no substitute. Among the exiles, remnants of the Faithful who had not adopted the false religion nor taken part in the rebellion, religion as divine worship (though perhaps not as philosophy and metaphysics) seems to have played a small part; though a glimpse of it is caught in Faramir's remark on 'grace at meat', Vol. II p. 285.
This doesn't address the beliefs of the Dwarves; however we know that Durin's Folk revere the Vala Aulë (as Mahal) and believe in a form of reincarnation concerning Durin the Deathless, the father of their House. They might have developed a more formal form of religion as compared to the Elves and the Dúnedain.

The Avari Elves would at least have knowledge of the Valar and Eru, although their attitudes toward them might differ from those of the Elves who took part in the Great Journey. Having never dwelled in Valinor, the Avari might tend to remain in Middle-earth after their physical death rather than moving on to the Halls of Mandos.

Orcs might have developed numerous belief-systems and lesser cults during the long years when Sauron was absent or inactive, although the cult of Morgoth would still have dominated. Beast-cults and ancestor worship might have arisen at those times. The Goblins of Moria, for instance, might have deified the Balrog to some degree.

The Men who did not belong to the Three Houses of the Edain. probably held many different religious beliefs as they had little or no knowledge of either the Valar or Eru. Those that were the most firmly under Sauron's control were encouraged or forced to belong to cults of Morgoth. Beast-cults might have also flourished; I have already speculated about dragon-cults arising in the East. Shamanistic beliefs might have been founded upon the very real existence of Ainur and other nature-spirits, sometimes incarnated in physical form. In the most well-developed of the pagan lands the native beliefs might have become more formalized and ritualized. There are early, real-world civilizations that go back to the time of Tolkien's Middle-earth (such as the Sumer civilization in southern Mesopotamia). You might borrow from them.
"Far, far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he."

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Kurt
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Re: Gods - Fate, Morality, Customs and Laws

Post by Kurt » Sun May 22, 2016 4:11 pm

Wow, awesome post Otaku-sempai.
Otaku-sempai wrote:The Men who did not belong to the Three Houses of the Edain. probably held many different religious beliefs as they had little or no knowledge of either the Valar or Eru. Those that were the most firmly under Sauron's control were encouraged or forced to belong to cults of Morgoth. Beast-cults might have also flourished; I have already speculated about dragon-cults arising in the East. Shamanistic beliefs might have been founded upon the very real existence of Ainur and other nature-spirits, sometimes incarnated in physical form. In the most well-developed of the pagan lands the native beliefs might have become more formalized and ritualized. There are early, real-world civilizations that go back to the time of Tolkien's Middle-earth (such as the Sumer civilization in southern Mesopotamia). You might borrow from them.
That makes sense to me. I was just assuming that everyone knew about the Vala and Eru and would have all worshiped the same "gods", that there was one consistent religion across all of Middle-earth, but it seems that it's not the case.
They had little or no 'religion' in the sense of worship. For help they may call on a Vala (as Elbereth), as a Catholic might on a Saint, though no doubt knowing in theory as well as he that the power of a Vala was limited and derivative
This suggests that religion is a very minor thing in Middle-earth.

Thanks again for that post, It was a very interesting read.

Cheers,
Kurt

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Arthadan
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Re: Gods - Fate, Morality, Customs and Laws

Post by Arthadan » Sun May 22, 2016 9:15 pm

Very interesting thread. A hint about religion of the native population of Eriador during the Númenorean expansion:
For Hazad also had been the youngest son of his mother, and she died in his boyhood; and she was not of their people. Such was the tale that he had overheard, not openly spoken indeed, for it was held no credit to the house: she came of the strange folk, hateful and proud, of which there was rumour in the west-lands, coming out of the East, it was said. Fair, tall, and flint-eyed they were, with bright weapons made by demons in the fiery hills. Slowly they were thrusting towards the shores of the Sea, driving before them the ancient dwellers in the lands.

Tal-Elmar, History of Middle-earth vol. XII - The Peoples of Middle-earth
Yet true is it also that thy folk are cruel, and lawless, and the friends of demons. Thieves are they. For our
lands are ours from of old, which they would wrest from us with their bitter blades. White skins and bright eyes are no warrant for such deeds.

Tal-Elmar, History of Middle-earth vol. XII - The Peoples of Middle-earth
The "demons" here are of course the Elves, which makes plenty of sense. Bitter foes of great power with gleaming blades and quite deadly would make quite an impression on the "barbaric" peoples, plus we have Sauron's own religion.

I've tried to find with o luck a quote about Orcs. It said they were taught to believe Elves were demons whick will torture them in terrible ways if they ever take them alive.

Now, regarding "religion" I'd pay attention to the different cultures lifestyle and how close or related to the Eldar or dúnedain they are. For example, Nortmen have a name for Oromë which is Béma. Taking in account they live around or inside Mirkwood a "God" related to beast and hunting makes a lot of sense. Gondorians pay a lot of attention to their deads, so quite probably Mandos and Nienna are important to them.

I'd advise to take a look to "Laws and Customs among the Eldar" in Morgoth's Ring (History of Middle-earth vol. X). There we have some examples of religion as practised by the Eldar. In short is quite personal.

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Kurt
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Re: Gods - Fate, Morality, Customs and Laws

Post by Kurt » Sun May 22, 2016 10:46 pm

Yes, It is an interesting thread. I am enjoying it and learning more about the history of Middle-earth because of your contributions.

For those that would like to know the book that I am reading and what got me thinking about this topic, I have typed out the details below.

The Quest for a Moral Compass - A Global History of Ethics - by Kenan Malik (2014)

In this remarkable and groundbreaking book, Kenan Malik explores the history of moral thought as it has developed over three millennia, from Homer's Greece, to Mao's China, from ancient India to modern America. It tells the stories of the great philosophers, and breaths life into their ideas, while also challenging many of our most cherished moral beliefs.

Engaging and provocative, The Quest for a Moral Compass confronts some of humanity's deepest questions. Where do values come from? Is God necessary for moral guidance? Are there absolute moral truths? It also brings down to earth, showing how, throughout history, social needs and political desires have shaped moral thinking. It is a history of the world through the history of moral thought, and a history of moral thought that casts new light on history.


Cheers,
Kurt

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Terisonen
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Re: Gods - Fate, Morality, Customs and Laws

Post by Terisonen » Mon May 23, 2016 9:12 am

I was assuming that Mandos only take care of Elves, not of Humans?
Nothing of Worth.

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zedturtle
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Re: Gods - Fate, Morality, Customs and Laws

Post by zedturtle » Mon May 23, 2016 12:46 pm

The Halls of Mandos contain a separate area for the fëa of Men, which stay there for a time before moving onto their ultimate fate. Purgatory, in other words.

I also imagine that there's another area for the rehabilitation of orcs (whether they're corrupted men or elves, their fëar come from Eru and thus will return to Him). Of course, I also imagine that takes a LONG time.
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Re: Gods - Fate, Morality, Customs and Laws

Post by Yinkin » Tue May 24, 2016 10:38 am

One thing that I think needs to be taken into acount is time. Yes, the men of the west of middle earth, of the first and second age met and talked and were tought by the noldor and the elves. But the second age ended THREE THOUSAND YEARS ago. That is as far back in time as we are to the egyptians, the early greeks and Babylon! Elves might remember all these truths about the world, and the heirs of Numenor keeps books, but all through the third age the elves have kept apart and has been leaving Middle Earth. There is plenty of time for tales to change, customs to change into wholly new traditions, and new peoples to merge and emerge.

Consider the Rohirrim; their history spans the last five hundred years, that is a long time to them! And what happened before is the realm of myth and tale. Mens' lives are short compared to the span of the world.

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Robin Smallburrow
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Re: Gods - Fate, Morality, Customs and Laws

Post by Robin Smallburrow » Thu Jun 02, 2016 9:58 am

You might find this article on Lindefirion useful Kurt:

http://wiki.lindefirion.net/Religion

Robin S.
To access all my links for my TOR Resources - please click on this link >> http://bit.ly/1gjXkCo

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