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It is an intriguing idea, trying to 'humanise' what is essentially an unredeamable foe. I have done this in one of my adventures but not on the scale that you were suggesting. I had my Beorning (Magneric) character's family kidnapped by the Viglundings when they were visiting the Easterly Inn, and the now subsequent Village that has sprung up around it due to the support of the party.

They managed to track them down to a, somewhat, fortified area. When they had dealt with the enemies and they were freeing the slaves Magneric's wife and another prisoner practically begged him to not act badly against another huddled and hooded prisoner. This person was in fact a female orc, I know there isn't really any details regarding orc females, but they have to make new orcs somehow? So I reasoned that it could be like with the Dwarves where their females aren't as active in the world, although in the case of orcs I would think they would be a lot harsher with their womenfolk.

I had every reason to think that Magneric may kill this orc, he is known as the 'Orcbreaker'. But he stayed his axe and let her live. Another reason I had for having this female orc appear was that one of my players was a Dwarf, and he had been researching a way to remove the corruption from a magical artefact he had found. He found records of a long forgotten Dwarven city, which would have old knowledge of a 'spell' that could cleanse the item, deep within the Misty Mountains but the only way he had found to get there would be to travel through Goblin Town, something that none of the party wanted to do. Fortunately he could understand the orc somewhat, as he had 2 permanent shadow, and he overheard her saying that she would return to the mountains. He managed to persuade her to tell him of the location of a secret cave that led into the mountains, where he could start his journey a lot easier to find the Dwarven city.

This meeting didn't let the players know whether or not this orc was 'nice' or not but it was the first orc they had met that didn't try to kill them. Perhaps this is as much as you can do with the orcs, being a temporary 'ally' or at least having a group of them not have much of a reason to attack your group.

The only other idea I had regarding this topic is similar to the episode of Deep Space Nine: 'The Abandoned', where the crew find a baby Jem'Hadar, that quickly matures and grows. Through the episode Odo and the others try, and fail, to make the Jem'Hadar understand that he doesn't have to be like the others. However his true nature is too powerful to overcome and he has to leave as he cannot control himself.

This could work with an orc, and bring about a lot of moral questions for a group of Heroes. Ultimately deciding his fate.

SirGamingScotsman wrote:The only other idea I had regarding this topic is similar to the episode of Deep Space Nine: 'The Abandoned', where the crew find a baby Jem'Hadar, that quickly matures and grows. Through the episode Odo and the others try, and fail, to make the Jem'Hadar understand that he doesn't have to be like the others. However his true nature is too powerful to overcome and he has to leave as he cannot control himself.

I also think that Star Trek has many episodes on this very topic, that could give some ideas on how to treat that subject. The Borgs are "an unredeamable foe", like the Orcs, but the writers did several episodes trying to "humanise" Borgs (in TNG and so on), similar to the one you mentionned above with the Jem'Hadar. It's a repeating theme in Star Trek after all...

Some of those ideas could be applied to Orcs, I think... Some seeds mentionned before in this thread are along the those lines (a baby orc raised by a human family in a farm for example)...

Some relevant fragments. Please keep in mind these come from History of Middle-earth vol. X - Morgoth's Rind, thus they are not "definitive".

It is true, of course, that Morgoth held the Orcs in dire thraldom; for in their corruption they had lost almost all possibility of resisting the domination of his will. So great indeed did its pressure upon them become ere Angband fell that, if he turned his thought towards them, they were conscious of his 'eye' wherever they might be; and when Morgoth was at last removed from Arda the Orcs that survived in the West were scattered, leaderless and almost witless, and were for a long time without control or purpose.
This servitude to a central will that reduced the Orcs almost to an ant-like life was seen even more plainly in the Second and Third Ages under the tyranny of Sauron, Morgoth's chief lieutenant. Sauron indeed achieved even greater control over his Orcs than Morgoth had done.

(* [footnote to the text] Few Orcs ever did so in the Elder Days, and at no time would any Orc treat with any Elf. For one thing Morgoth had achieved was to convince the Orcs beyond refutation that the Elves were crueller than themselves, taking captives only for 'amusement', or to eat them (as the Orcs would do at need).)

(* [footnote to the text] But there remained one flaw in his control, inevitable. In the kingdom of hate and fear, the strongest thing is hate. All his Orcs hated one another, and must be kept ever at war with some 'enemy' to prevent them from slaying one another.)

I would urge a degree of caution before humanising Orcs very much. It is well beyond Tolkien canon, which is not to say that as it's your game you cannot interpret things your own way, but it would be to start diverging quite a lot from LotR. Neither the Orcish captors of Pippin and Merry nor the Orcish captors of Frodo showed much "humanity".... (at least not in any nice sense) and they are our closest glimpses of Orcish nature given by the Professor.

Also the Shadow/Hope interface in TOR already imposes a great burden on players in coping with or facing moral dilemmas. Adding yet another problem with captive Orcs making sad puppy faces at the heroes etc might be going a tad too far IMHO. There is ample scope for Loremasters to exploit the tension of moral ambiguity for non-Orcish servants of the Shadow, many of whom can be capable of regret if not redemption, as even was Sméagol/Gollum.

As I say, your game, your way, but I personally would hasten slowly in that regard... Or else, next we might have Shelob with a pet kitten called Tiddles?

cheers
Mark

Lifstan

I recommend you read the article on playing evil characters in Other Minds #14? for some ideas

I have run a game of MERP where all the players played orcs - Paranoia is a good way of putting it!

As i said in the other thread about a female Orc priestess, the problem is how u explain how such a "faulty" (as the Dark Lord would see it) Orc could survive- weaklings don't last in Orc society

Robin S

Hey everyone!

When I was running my TOR game, I never got to put it in, but I so wanted to have a scene with Tom Bombadil. Anyway, the plan was to have the players chased by orcs, and not realize who Tom was yet. He'd send them off to the camp, and knowing them, they'd sneak back to make sure he was okay. Anyway, they'd see him stamp his foot when the Orc tracker came near, and the orc would get swallowed up by the earth. A moment later, he'd spring back out of the ground as an elf. Not sure how cannonical that is, but I always thought it'd be a really amazing way to portray the goodness that some orcs still have deep within them, and the power of Tom all at once.

-TMG

TheMonarchGamer wrote:Anyway, they'd see him stamp his foot when the Orc tracker came near, and the orc would get swallowed up by the earth. A moment later, he'd spring back out of the ground as an elf. Not sure how cannonical that is, but I always thought it'd be a really amazing way to portray the goodness that some orcs still have deep within them, and the power of Tom all at once.

-TMG

I dunno. That seems too easy and pat. I don't think that even Bombadil should be able to heal the corruption of Morgoth with so little effort. Tolkien wrote that the Orcs were virtually irredeemable and I, personally, don't think that he would have cared for such a quick fix even using Tom.

Otaku-sempai wrote:

TheMonarchGamer wrote:Anyway, they'd see him stamp his foot when the Orc tracker came near, and the orc would get swallowed up by the earth. A moment later, he'd spring back out of the ground as an elf. Not sure how cannonical that is, but I always thought it'd be a really amazing way to portray the goodness that some orcs still have deep within them, and the power of Tom all at once.

-TMG

I dunno. That seems too easy and pat. I don't think that even Bombadil should be able to heal the corruption of Morgoth with so little effort. Tolkien wrote that the Orcs were virtually irredeemable and I, personally, don't think that he would have cared for such a quick fix even using Tom.

That's true, although doesn't it depend on what point in Tolkien's writings? If I recall correctly, he did later write in his letters that he was unhappy with the orcs being portrayed as fundamentally evil, as it was inconsistent with his Catholic worldview. All the same, that might very well be giving Tom too much power.