The Errantries (and Journeys?) of the King

[Glorelendil]

And if we do want to get all astronomical/geometrical...

If Minas Tirith were located at the same latitude as Rome (just sayin'...) then you would be able to see ~88% of the entire sky. Not all at once, of course, but as the earth rotates you would eventually see the full 88% of the sky. For simplicity, let's assume an approximately even distribution of stars, so that's 88% of the stars.

From the equator (e.g. Kenya) you could see all of the sky, except perhaps the North Star itself, so 12% of the visible stars would be new and 88% would be familiar.

If you were then to go 41 degrees further south (which from Italy would mean beyond the tip of Africa), deep into the southern hemisphere, approximately 12% of the stars you know would be hidden. E.g., Ursa Minor and some of Ursa Major would be hidden. But that's still about 86% of the visible stars are familiar.

Even if we do this experiment from London, 82% of the sky is visible at some point, so at an equivalent distance south (halfway to antarctica) 78% of the stars are familiar.

Unless my math is totally wrong. But I don't think it is.

All of which makes me wonder if "the stars are strange" means "the ones we know are in the wrong place" and not "entirely new stars appear".

[zedturtle]

Yeah, we do not need to be quite so literal. In that place they thought that 'The Crab' was a spider, and 'The Bear' a spoon! And the Hunter had a dog that followed him." might be another way to express Aragorn's experience, without needing drastic latitudinal travel.

[Otaku-sempai]

All of which makes me wonder if "the stars are strange" means "the ones we know are in the wrong place" and not "entirely new stars appear".

Well, when Aragorn utters that line it is during the Council of Elrond in Rivendell, where he was raised. Minas Tirith is over 600 miles south of Imladris, and the Havens of Umbar are about 1200 miles away. Aragorn himself confirms that he has journeyed as far as Haradwaith and it's pretty clear that this is what he means: "...even into the far countries of Rhûn and Harad where the stars are strange." The stars would not be strange in Rhûn unless he also reached the lower latitudes as far as Mordor and Khand.

Yeah, we do not need to be quite so literal. In that place they thought that 'The Crab' was a spider, and 'The Bear' a spoon! And the Hunter had a dog that followed him." might be another way to express Aragorn's experience, without needing drastic latitudinal travel.

We don't need to go as far as the Girdle of Arda; however, it is clear that Aragorn was speaking about Harad.

[Otaku-sempai]

'I too once passed the Dimrill Gate,' said Aragorn quietly; 'but though I also came out again, the memory is very evil. I do not wish to enter Moria a second time.'

When was it, do you suppose, that Aragorn explored the Mines of Moria? We know that Gandalf did not accompany him; Gandalf's own expedition in search of the missing Thráin had to have been prior to 2941 and might have been long before Aragorn was even born.

Perhaps this was during the Ranger's errantry in Rohan, scouting out rumors of a threat from Moria against the Horse-lords. It had to be before 2989 and Balin's attempt to recolonize Moria, but if Aragorn spent much of the period between 2980 and 2989 journeying to Rhûn and Far Harad then the mission that took him to Khazad-dûm was probably before that. And I don't see Moria being much of a threat to Gondor, so it was probably not connected to Aragorn's service to the Steward Ecthelion.

Surprisingly (at least to me) there is no attempt to address this question in the Moria supplement for MERP; nor does it try to answer the question of when Gandalf entered Moria in search of Thráin. But, my copy is from 1984 and a later edition (for MERP 2e) might yield a different result.

[Terisonen]

Setting for Merp is Third Age 1640 (just after the Plague) so it might explain that. We're far far away from 2941...

[Otaku-sempai]

Setting for Merp is Third Age 1640 (just after the Plague) so it might explain that. We're far far away from 2941...

Yes, I am fully aware of the TA 1640 default setting for MERP; however, the Moria supplement also includes both a timeline and a history that stretch to the end of the Third Age; and adventures for both the late Third Age and the Fourth Age. Peter Fenlon (author and designer of the Moria supplement) could have taken a stab at when Gandalf and Aragorn each first visited Moria. I wonder if he might have been overruled.

[Wbweather]

Well, it certainly might make for an interesting adventure for some characters to travel into Moria with Eärn. Perhaps some Rohirrim or Dunlendings? Although what they would need to go there for I don't know.

[zedturtle]

Well, it certainly might make for an interesting adventure for some characters to travel into Moria with Eärn. Perhaps some Rohirrim or Dunlendings? Although what they would need to go there for I don't know.

To compare notes after repeatedly whacking the Balrog of Nan Mordeleb.

Neither Aragorn nor Gandalf seem to aware of the riddle-lock to the doors to the West-Gate. That means that they either entered through the West Gate or some other means. Gandalf certainly passed through the length of Moria because he knew how the West Gate operated from the inside. Aragorn, to my recollection (travelling and have no reference material at hand), did not say anything one way or another.

[Otaku-sempai]

Well, it certainly might make for an interesting adventure for some characters to travel into Moria with Eärn. Perhaps some Rohirrim or Dunlendings? Although what they would need to go there for I don't know.

There are increasing reports of Orcs attacking shepherds and their flocks and raiding homesteads in the Wold. Rumors suggest that the goblins are attacking from the Misty Mountains north of Fangorn and the Eagle suspects that Moria-Orcs are somehow behind it.

[Wbweather]

Whatever the reason for going, something truly awful must occur while the company is there to make Aragorn dread returning so much. It would make sense that he entered through the eastern gate in the Dimrill Dale, since he did not know how to enter from the west. Aragorn must have visited before 2989 when Balin founded his colony. Perhaps Aragorn even helped (indirectly) encourage Balin by leading a mission into Moria and coming out alive. He wouldn't even need to be known by his real identity. Word may have gotten back to Erebor that a group of men had entered and come out alive. Gandalf may have visited Moria in the height of its glory and not needed to open the western gate. Since 1000 years have past since it fell, it would make sense that he might struggle remembering the way through as he seems to do in the books.