"Biting Dart" wording

[Dunheved]

Phew! That makes sense now.

Thanks Zedturtle

[Dunheved]

So I assume that you can combine Ranged qualities (Biting Dart) and Close combat qualities (Foe Slaying) in a Spear..... but is it the writer's intent that the Quality goes with the Weapon or the USE of the weapon? [I can't say that I have an opinion either way]


(obviously Runes is good for both)

[Glorelendil]

Frankly, this particular Enchanted Quality strikes me as so poor that it is almost effectively cursed!

Au Contraire!

It's terrible at low skill vs. high TNs, of course, but as your skill increases it becomes better and better.

At, say, Bow: 2 vs. Parry 6 it results in a 70% decrease in damage and an 80% decrease in Pierces. Ewww.
But at Bow: 3 those losses become 20% and 30%.
And at Bow: 4 they turn into gains of 40% and 20%.

[Falenthal]

What if the two hits could be directed at two different foes?

You should hit both, with their individual TNs, but potentially could inflict two Pierces to two foes in a single round.

All Legolas with a bow, and impailing in pairs with a spear.

[Earendil]

I have to say I dislike the rule that must roll twice against a Bane enemy. If you're attacking something with a high Parry that could really cripple you. I don't think there are any other magical qualities that actively disadvantage you (although a blue glowing sword might ruin attempts to be stealthy, I always say the player can sheathe the sword to hide its light).

I'd definitely give the player the choice each round of whether to use this or just make a single normal attack. Obviously they'd need to decide before making the first attack roll!

[Otaku-sempai]

I don't see any reason why Biting Dart couldn't be applied directly to an arrow, but it seems more useful to work it into a bow instead. The same with any other projectile-type weapon that is fired from a device (sling-stone, dart, etc.).

I do agree that the quality can also be applied to other ranged weapons (spear, javelin, throwing-stick, etc.) but only takes affect with a ranged attack, not in close-combat.

[Glorelendil]

I have to say I dislike the rule that must roll twice against a Bane enemy. If you're attacking something with a high Parry that could really cripple you. I don't think there are any other magical qualities that actively disadvantage you (although a blue glowing sword might ruin attempts to be stealthy, I always say the player can sheathe the sword to hide its light).

I'd definitely give the player the choice each round of whether to use this or just make a single normal attack. Obviously they'd need to decide before making the first attack roll!

Again, if you have the skill (3 vs. very low Parry, 4 vs. Parry up to 7, 5 vs. anything) it's not a disadvantage. Yes, you are somewhat less likely to hit, but you average a lot more damage and Pierces.

But my "dream set-up" no longer includes Foe-Slaying. Because of the two chances to Pierce, reducing Edge gives diminishing returns. I mean, it wouldn't make anything worse, but I think I'd want higher Injury rather than lower Edge. So Biting Dart, Runes of Victory, and Fell (Superior Fell is not available for Elven make.)

EDIT: Actually, I take that back. Foe-Slaying doesn't make a Biting Dart weapon worse, but Biting Dart can make a Foe-Slaying weapon worse (at least, in terms of Pierce probability) against high TNs. Strange but true. I can elaborate if anybody is skeptical.

[Dunheved]

There's a few parts in this thread now.
1. I think that Biting Dart is clearly able to be used with Spears: but are we saying that it only applies when the spear is a missile
2. That Biting Dart is best combined with only a few other Qualities e.g. Fell rather than Keen; however I can't see a clear POV that says its arrows or bows that hold this Quality - so any Quality that is restricted to Close combat Items cannot be added to bows/arrows with Biting Dart [I'm open to clarification here]
3. That two successful hits are needed to have an effect is a real concern at low skills; higher weapon skills offset this drawback [this suggests that the Quality is of limited use in an index to me: hence my original comment]

Is there any thing else being brought up on this?

[Glorelendil]

There's a few parts in this thread now.
1. I think that Biting Dart is clearly able to be used with Spears: but are we saying that it only applies when the spear is a missile [I think we are in this thread]

If "we" means you and Zedturtle, then yes.

If it were (and I think it would be cruel to give a player an enchanted weapon that could only be used once a fight...even more cruel if it has other enchanted qualities that get unused because you threw it during the volley) then the best way to use it would be to blow all your bonus dice on the throw.

2. That Biting Dart is best combined with only a few other Qualities e.g. Fell rather than Keen; however I can't see a clear POV that says its arrows or bows that hold this Quality - so any Quality that is restricted to Close combat Items cannot be added to bows/arrows with Biting Dart [I'm open to clarification here]

Because technically a Bow is a weapon, whereas arrows aren't even included in the weapons list. And because if arrows had the enchantment either you'd need an infinite supply (at which point you could give them to your companions) or you'd have to exhaust your supply at some point. The precedent for that is found in the only place that arrows are mentioned as non-abstract items (Númenórean Arrows, in Rivendell), which have a mechanic for being lost in battle.

EDIT: But on the last part I believe you are correct: qualities that are specific to close-combat weapons cannot be applied to bows, because even though they might be used as improvised clubs they are not technically ranged and close-combat weapons, the way a Spear (but not Great Spear) is.

3. That two successful hits are needed to have an effect is a real concern at low skills; higher weapon skills offset this drawback [this suggests that the Quality is of limited use in an index to me: hence my original comment]

Is there any thing else being brought up on this?

Could you elaborate on why it's of limited use in an index? Indices are supposed to contain several options for each hero; if a hero is lucky enough to win a magic treasure...or even two...early in his career, the LM could simply choose a different item from the index. But maybe I'm missing something obvious...I often am.

[Dunheved]

(Sorry for delay in reply - I got taken away by domestic powers)

1. and 2. Fair comment. I guess I'd like to be sure if the Item category is going to be strictly held to (except by House Rule of course). i.e. RAW means the weapon has to be launched. If that is the case, then it does restrict the value of the Quality (imho) which leads to point 3.

I feel that for a PC to really benefit from a quality object, then gaining the object makes a really significant improvement to the PCs performance. As I see it, the LM is constructing an Index of objects to fit the description on page 90 of Rivendell: "a major turning point ... with definite consequences on the future of a hero. A magical object is....a new feature in your storytelling".
So Bilbo uses Sting for the first time and realises his ...fortitude, perhaps when he kills a Spider unaided. Frankly that wasn't going to happen if he had his camping knife with him. Bilbo has the latent ability but the use of Sting realises the ability.

Is it fair to consider Bilbo at this point as a character with a high or developed weapon skill? I don't think so, therefore Sting is Bilbo's enhancement. Sting makes an important and overriding difference: that Bilbo uses time & again in his one-hobbit attack on the Spider nest and the subsequent Dwarf rescue. I just feel that a PC with a moderate ranged weapon skill using a Biting Dart Quality won't get that consistent boost of confidence.

If a PC has to be already at quite a high weapon ability (say 4 or above) then they are ALREADY useful and the Quality exaggerates their High level capability, while (as I see it) working against another PC with a Low level capability.
The very fact that a PC should be at a high level before the Quality is reliable is why I think it is of restricted value in an Index. I realise this is obviously my impression of how magical items should appear in Tolkien and its very interesting to see how others look at this section: makes one think again.

I could so easily be persuaded to take on Biting Dart if the double strike feature were removed: and I'd be happier if it could be used more than once in a combat: I definitely agree with you on that point.