Dwarven Crafting Undertaking: Benefits of Obsession

[Kullervo]

I originally placed the post a few days back into the Erebor thread but people are incredibly excited about this product so it just drowned, heh. Figured I'd throw it into its own thread for spacing's sake, because I am really curious about this thing, dunno if anyone else found it!

Basically page 32, when it describes the procedure for Dwarven Crafting:

The first time that the smith chooses to gain Shadow for Craftsmanship points the hero becomes driven...

The next paragraph has 2 bulletspoints about the benefits of obsession(And here I assume it is referring to being Driven), one about reduced TN, the second point talks about the 'first time you roll a Gandalf on craft that time, you modify the item numeric value by 1, and regain 1 Hope'

So far so good. The question comes from the example listed on the next page, where a dwarf rolls his dice, gets a Great Success for 2 Craft Points, then spends 2 Exp for 2 more Craft Points, putting him at 4. Then the NEXT phase he take the same undertaking, he rolls a Gandalf plus a success, and this makes him rise to 5 Craft Points (normal), and also raise the Axe damage to 6, from 5, due to modifying it by 1 as a result of Gandalf.

Thing is, the second bullet point under 'benefits of obsession' does not mention anything about it only being for Driven Smiths. The first one specifically does. The example makes you think you are to interpret it that way. Another person I know understood this as 'the example has a mistake, and the Gandalf thing is only for Driven smiths.'

My apologies if this seems like I'm double-posting, I just want to understand the rule how it is intended!

[zedturtle]

If the example remains in that order, wherein the smith rolls the Gandalf first and then the Sauron afterwards then I feel fairly confident that it was intentional. Perhaps the text could be tweaked to make sure that it's clear than the first Gandalf always can raise the rating of the item and additionally can relieve a driven smith of their obsession.

[alphaloup]

The second bullet point begins with "moreover" suggesting that it is a carry over from the first bullet point which does directly tie it into being driven. Also the very first aspect of rolling a Gandalf is that "the smith is no longer considered driven." This is why I would read it as a benefit for driven characters only. Further thoughts?

[Kullervo]

The second bullet point begins with "moreover" suggesting that it is a carry over from the first bullet point which does directly tie it into being driven. Also the very first aspect of rolling a Gandalf is that "the smith is no longer considered driven." This is why I would read it as a benefit for driven characters only. Further thoughts?

True, but the line in the gandalf text is

Moreover, the first time a Gandalf is rolled during a Craft test, the smith is no longer considered driven, gains...

Which to me, suggests it doesnt matter WHEN you get the Gandalf, it just literally means 'When you get a Gandalf on a craft roll during that undertaking for the first time'. It does not say 'When you get a Gandalf on a craft roll during that undertaking for the first time while Driven' for example, so the exclusion clause doesnt exist. I'm inclined to agree with Zedturtle, it was my original view but another person I know disagreed, so I figured I'd see what you guys think!

[alphaloup]

Kullervo,

You have not persuaded my yet, however, I agree that there is a strong argument in support of your interpretation of this rule (and it certainly doesn't seem damaging to the system even if it isn't how I would interpret it).

[Glorelendil]

Oh, strange...I wrote a response to this but it's missing.

I took a look again at the rules and I agree that something is odd. The use of the plural "there are advantages", the rules location (in a bullet point of benefits), and the use of "moreover" all point to the Gandalf only resulting in an improved weapon if the smith is already Driven. If that's not an advantage of being Driven then Driven only has a single advantage. (Advantages are relative to something, so if the only unique function of the rule is to terminate the Driven condition it's not an advantage of the condition.) And you wouldn't say "moreover" unless you were building upon something previous.

[Kullervo]

Oh, strange...I wrote a response to this but it's missing.

I took a look again at the rules and I agree that something is odd. The use of the plural "there are advantages", the rules location (in a bullet point of benefits), and the use of "moreover" all point to the Gandalf only resulting in an improved weapon if the smith is already Driven. If that's not an advantage of being Driven then Driven only has a single advantage. (Advantages are relative to something, so if the only unique function of the rule is to terminate the Driven condition it's not an advantage of the condition.) And you wouldn't say "moreover" unless you were building upon something previous.

True enough. It would have to say advantage... Still, its a bit strange that its worded without the 'driven' part there. Maybe part of the second advantage applies only if you are Driven? I am not sure. As far as the rule goes, my thought was that the player is going to be able to do this only ONCE for their character, so of course they will attempt to get the best possible result. However, the best possible result is, if we interpret it the 'Gandalf only on Driven' way, is very dangerous, considering the Dwarves low Hope and being unable to get rid of Shadow. You can always buy more Craft Dots to ensure a quick success but your best hope is to get a Gandalf so you're risking that, stretching the task out, so you maybe have a chance at a Gandalf. In the end, you could keep delaying due to materials, and basically earning yourself a few permanent shadow points.

My point is basically, if its just 'first time you rolled a gandalf' that is essentially a reward for chance, like most Undertakings are which make you roll, but if you have to be Driven first... I dont know. Perhaps there was meant to be a blurb about how being Driven -resets- this 'first time only' thing? THEN it would make sense, after you got your best result, you are tempted into more, and you spend Shadow. But if the 'you must be driven to mod your weapon by 1' is only on Driven, then there is a large chunk of text missing in the example, and it really seems... well, unlikely.

[zedturtle]

It's also a relatively common turn of phrase, and the first effect does apply multiple times. It does feel like there could be another line or two in order to truly clarify the process, or it may be one of those things that remains ambiguous so that individual LMs have some room for interpretation depending on how much crafting of such items they want in their campaign.

[Glorelendil]

Still, its a bit strange that its worded without the 'driven' part there.

I don't find it strange...or, that is, I wouldn't find it strange if the intended interpretation were that it only triggers on Driven...because it is after all a bullet point for advantages of Driven. So I would think the dependency on Driven is assumed.

[zedturtle]

Still, its a bit strange that its worded without the 'driven' part there.

I don't find it strange...or, that is, I wouldn't find it strange if the intended interpretation were that it only triggers on Driven...because it is after all a bullet point for advantages of Driven. So I would think the dependency on Driven is assumed.

Well then the example text on the next page is wrong, because the smith becomes Driven after rolling the Gandalf and improving the weapon's damage value. So there's some room for interpretation.